[ECOS] Development environment under Windows without cygwin?

[ECOS] Development environment under Windows without cygwin?

[Richard Rauch]

Hi All,

Do anybody knows a way to work without cygwin natively on Windows?

It seems, that cygwin is causing several problems on different windows
environments.
Is there a way to work without cygwin?
Is the gnu compiler/linker toolchain available for windows? Which versions
are comparable to the arm-eabi-gcc V4.3.2 ?
Is it possible to run the eCos Config Tool without cygwin?

Thanks
Richard


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Re: [ECOS] Development environment under Windows without cygwin?

[Gary Thomas]

On 03/23/2011 08:41 AM, Richard Rauch wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Do anybody knows a way to work without cygwin natively on Windows?
>
> It seems, that cygwin is causing several problems on different windows
> environments.
> Is there a way to work without cygwin?
> Is the gnu compiler/linker toolchain available for windows? Which versions
> are comparable to the arm-eabi-gcc V4.3.2 ?
> Is it possible to run the eCos Config Tool without cygwin?

If you want to avoid CygWin, run Linux in a VM.
Better yet, just run Linux.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------
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MLB Associates              |    Embedded world
------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: [ECOS] Development environment under Windows without cygwin?

[Stanislav Meduna]

On 23.03.2011 15:41, Richard Rauch wrote:

> It seems, that cygwin is causing several problems on different windows
> environments.
> Is there a way to work without cygwin?
> Is the gnu compiler/linker toolchain available for windows? Which versions
> are comparable to the arm-eabi-gcc V4.3.2 ?

You can build yor own using MinGW. I am building such toolchains
regularly and the recent (4.4, 4.5) GNU ones are quite
friendly in this regard, although not completely without
problems. At our company these are used to build and link
applications against includes/libtarget built in a traditional
way - unfortunately there are people that are not comfortable
with configuring and running Linux and sending a setup
is easier than sending a virtual machine.

A major PITA is the slowness of Windows file status functions,
slowing make to a grind - the gcc/g++/libstdc++ build for
a mix of multilibs took several _days_.

I don't think it is possible to use a non-cygwin environment
to work with eCos itself - the time spent to make all the
makefiles etc. compatible would be IMHO enormous. Cygwin
is a mess, but finding workarounds will be less effort.

Regards
-- 
                                  Stano

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AW: [ECOS] Development environment under Windows without cygwin?

[Richard Rauch]

We are working with YAGARTO, too. This includes a GNU ARM toolchain, which
do not needs cygwin. 

So I had the idea, that somebody has already a solution for building eCos
itself with this toolchain.

Richard

Richard Rauch
email: rrauch@itrgmbh.de
 
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[ECOS] Re: Development environment under Windows without cygwin?

[John Dallaway]

Hi Richard

Richard Rauch wrote:

> It seems, that cygwin is causing several problems on different windows
> environments.
> Is there a way to work without cygwin?
> Is the gnu compiler/linker toolchain available for windows? Which versions
> are comparable to the arm-eabi-gcc V4.3.2 ?

The Code Confidence Tools support eCos development both on Linux hosts
and on Windows hosts without Cygwin. Ref:

  http://www.codeconfidence.com/tools

> Is it possible to run the eCos Config Tool without cygwin?

The eCos Configuration Tool runs on Cygwin and Linux only.

Regards

John Dallaway

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[ECOS] Re: Development environment under Windows without cygwin?

[John Dallaway]

Hi Richard

Richard Rauch wrote:

> It seems, that cygwin is causing several problems on different windows
> environments.
> Is there a way to work without cygwin?
> Is the gnu compiler/linker toolchain available for windows? Which versions
> are comparable to the arm-eabi-gcc V4.3.2 ?

The Code Confidence Tools support eCos development both on Linux hosts
and on Windows hosts without Cygwin. Ref:

  http://www.codeconfidence.com/tools

> Is it possible to run the eCos Config Tool without cygwin?

The eCos Configuration Tool runs on Cygwin and Linux only.

Regards

John Dallaway

-- 
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Code Confidence Ltd
http://www.codeconfidence.com

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[ECOS] Re: Development environment under Windows without cygwin?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2011-03-23, Richard Rauch <rrauch@itrgmbh.de> wrote:

> Do anybody knows a way to work without cygwin natively on Windows?

I don't.

> It seems, that cygwin is causing several problems on different windows
> environments.

Cygwin is fragile.  It's a minor miracle it works at all, and a major
miracle it works as well as it does.  But it's still fragile and not
easy to work with.

> Is there a way to work without cygwin?

Yes: install Linux in a virtual machine (VirtualBox, VMWare, etc.).

Seriously.  It's easier than working with Windows/Cygwin.

> Is the gnu compiler/linker toolchain available for windows?

I believe so, but that's only a minor part of the problem.  The shell
scripts, TCL programs, and makefiles are the tough part.

> Which versions are comparable to the arm-eabi-gcc V4.3.2?
>
> Is it possible to run the eCos Config Tool without cygwin?

I don't think so.

You're swimming against a pretty strong current.

It _may_ be possible, in theory, to do what you want -- but it's going
to take _lots_ of time and _lots_ of expertise with both Windows and
Unix command-line stuff.

-- 
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                                  at               of Lycra Spandex?
                              gmail.com            


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AW: [ECOS] Re: Development environment under Windows without cygwin?

[Richard Rauch]

 
Thanks a lot for all your comments,

It looks like that there is no way beside linux, when I want to avoid
cygwin. 
In principle, I have no aversions regarding linux, but I never worked with
and I am a little afraid about additional effort.

Richard


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Re: [ECOS] Re: Development environment under Windows without cygwin?

[Michael Bergandi]

> It looks like that there is no way beside linux, when I want to avoid
> cygwin.
> In principle, I have no aversions regarding linux, but I never worked with
> and I am a little afraid about additional effort.

Ubuntu is about as easy as it gets when it comes to diving into Linux.
You may want to stick with the Long Term Support (LTS) versions for
obvious reasons.

Once I started doing embedded development in Linux and realized how
much more power, versatility, productivity I had there, I started to
wonder why anyone would ever use Windows. I think you will find that
the effort you spend will pay huge dividends in the long run.

-- 
Mike

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[ECOS] Re: Development environment under Windows without cygwin?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2011-03-23, Michael Bergandi <mbergandi@gmail.com> wrote:
>> It looks like that there is no way beside linux, when I want to avoid
>> cygwin.
>> In principle, I have no aversions regarding linux, but I never worked with
>> and I am a little afraid about additional effort.
>
> Ubuntu is about as easy as it gets when it comes to diving into Linux.
> You may want to stick with the Long Term Support (LTS) versions for
> obvious reasons.
>
> Once I started doing embedded development in Linux and realized how
> much more power, versatility, productivity I had there, I started to
> wonder why anyone would ever use Windows.

I've been doing embedded development under Unix/Linux since 1983, and
have been wondering why anybody bothers with Windows since I first
tried using it 1990.  Every few years, events conspire to force me to
try using Windows for embedded development, and I find it's still
ill-suited to the task..

> I think you will find that the effort you spend will pay huge
> dividends in the long run.

Obviously I concur. :)

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Kids, don't gross me
                                  at               off ... "Adventures with
                              gmail.com            MENTAL HYGIENE" can be
                                                   carried too FAR!


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Re: [ECOS] Re: Development environment under Windows without cygwin?

[Ilija Kocho]

On 23.03.2011 19:59, Michael Bergandi wrote:
>> It looks like that there is no way beside linux, when I want to avoid
>> cygwin.
>> In principle, I have no aversions regarding linux, but I never worked with
>> and I am a little afraid about additional effort.
> Ubuntu is about as easy as it gets when it comes to diving into Linux.
> You may want to stick with the Long Term Support (LTS) versions for
> obvious reasons.

Latest LTS Ubuntu 10.04 I recommend too, all packages mature and feature
complete.

> Once I started doing embedded development in Linux and realized how
> much more power, versatility, productivity I had there, I started to
> wonder why anyone would ever use Windows. I think you will find that
> the effort you spend will pay huge dividends in the long run.
>
I recommend you to try, The only risk is that in 6-12 month you will run
Linux as basic machine and Windows as either second boot or VM for
eventual apps that don't run on Linux.

Regards
Ilija

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Re: [ECOS] Re: Development environment under Windows without cygwin?

[Yurij Grechishhev]

2011/3/23 Richard Rauch <rrauch@itrgmbh.de>:
>
> It looks like that there is no way beside linux, when I want to avoid
> cygwin.
> In principle, I have no aversions regarding linux, but I never worked with
> and I am a little afraid about additional effort.
>

You can try to compile the eCos source using the gcc-compatible
compiler, for instance, MULTI Green Hills. It works, but it's not the
best way.

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Re: [ECOS] Development environment under Windows without cygwin?

[Alex Schuilenburg]

On 2011-03-23 14:41, Richard Rauch wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Do anybody knows a way to work without cygwin natively on Windows?

Yes, now we that we have formally announced native Windows host support :-)

The new 3.1 eCosPro Developers Kits (commercial versions of eCos, the
host tools and development environement) do not use cygwin at all.

ecosconfig and the GUI configtool shipped with eCosPro 3.1, as well as
all the GNU toolchains, run natively on all versions of Windows from XP
onwards, so you can stick with what you know.  Build times are also
comparable to those achieved on Linux hosts for same-spec machines. 

HTH
-- Alex


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Re: [ECOS] Development environment under Windows without cygwin?

[Manuel Borchers]

Hi!

Am Mittwoch, den 11.05.2011, 17:06 +0100 schrieb Alex Schuilenburg: 
> The new 3.1 eCosPro Developers Kits (commercial versions of eCos, the
> host tools and development environement) do not use cygwin at all.
> 
> ecosconfig and the GUI configtool shipped with eCosPro 3.1, as well as
> all the GNU toolchains, run natively on all versions of Windows from XP
> onwards, so you can stick with what you know.  Build times are also
> comparable to those achieved on Linux hosts for same-spec machines. 

This is somewhat related to the original posters question, but first a
little background what I'm trying to do:

Currently, we (well, actually it's just me here ;) are trying to setup
an environment where our students in a lab could use eCos.

I'm developing using a linux environment using the ecoscentric-provided
binary toolchains from 2008. This is perfectly adequate for my stuff.

Unfortunatly, our PCs in the lab are windows only (and administration
isn't done by me, so installing stuff is another story). Yesterday, I
tried for a few hours to setup a flow, where I would generate the kernel
libraries for the lab and the students just need to link their apps
against the provided kernel.

Currently, we have a quite old arm-elf toolchain (4.0.3) on the windows
boxes. So grabbed a 4.0.4 compiler for my linux box. Using a virtual
machine with windows I was quite successful with this setup. Linking
went fine in this scenario, but executing the small demo app failed.
After a little research I found out what was failing: the DHCP managment
thread bailed out with an assertion that the stack base wasn't properly
aligned. Using arm-elf-nm I saw that the assertion was quite right. The
linker linked the stack to an odd address! I double checked the ld file,
and there clearly was the ALIGN(0x4) at the .bss section. So, I guess I
found a linker/compiler bug. I could work around the problem by adding
an align attribute to the stack definition, but I've a little
stomach-ache doing so and that such an error might occure elsewhere,
too.

And now back to the original topic:
I tried to get the ecoscentric-provided arm-eabi toolchain running under
windows. I failed doing so. Even after installing cygwin (which wouldn't
be that easy to install to the lab PCs) and shuffling dll's around. I
guess, the toolchain is too old to get it properly running on modern
cygwin/windows machines.

So the question is: are there plans by ecoscetric to contribute a newer
arm-eabi windows toolchain to the public? That would be really great,
because I really don't like to build one on my own for windows... That
one in the commercial version being cygwin-free raised my attention and
this question ;)


Cheers,
Manuel

-- 
Dipl.-Ing. Manuel Borchers

Technische Universität Berlin
Institut für Energie- und Automatisierungstechnik
Fachgebiet Elektronik und medizinische Signalverarbeitung

Sekretariat EN3
Einsteinufer 17
10587 Berlin
Germany

Tel.: +49 (30) 314-21072
Raum: EN-509

Home: http://www.emsp.tu-berlin.de/
eMail: manuel.borchers@tu-berlin.de


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Re: [ECOS] Development environment under Windows without cygwin?

[Alex Schuilenburg]

On 2011-05-13 09:29, Manuel Borchers wrote:
> [...]
> Currently, we have a quite old arm-elf toolchain (4.0.3) on the windows
> boxes.
You did not say which version of eCos you were using, but if you are
still using arm-elf this would indicate you are using eCos version 2
which could be the first of your problems. Much has happened since eCos
2.0 was released. With the eCos 3.0 release in 2009, we upgraded the ARM
compiler to arm-eabi and gcc version 4.3.2.

I strongly suggest you switch to eCos 3.0/anoncvs and the arm-eabi gcc
4.3.2 (cygwin hosted) we contributed to the eCos 3.0 public release


>  So grabbed a 4.0.4 compiler for my linux box. Using a virtual
> machine with windows I was quite successful with this setup. Linking
> went fine in this scenario, but executing the small demo app failed.
> After a little research I found out what was failing: the DHCP managment
> thread bailed out with an assertion that the stack base wasn't properly
> aligned. Using arm-elf-nm I saw that the assertion was quite right. The
> linker linked the stack to an odd address! I double checked the ld file,
> and there clearly was the ALIGN(0x4) at the .bss section. So, I guess I
> found a linker/compiler bug. I could work around the problem by adding
> an align attribute to the stack definition, but I've a little
> stomach-ache doing so and that such an error might occure elsewhere,
> too.
You probably have found a linker/compiler bug.  Not many people
appreciate the effort we put into testing the GNU tools on real hardware
and fixing some or other rare edge condition or the like before we ship
them to customers or contribute them. I certainly don't think you can
take it for granted that any toolchain you download will just work -
just read this list's archives...


> And now back to the original topic:
> I tried to get the ecoscentric-provided arm-eabi toolchain running under
> windows. I failed doing so. Even after installing cygwin (which wouldn't
> be that easy to install to the lab PCs) and shuffling dll's around. I
> guess, the toolchain is too old to get it properly running on modern
> cygwin/windows machines.
I disagree and I find this surprising.  The 4.3.2 arm-eabi toolchain
contribution is only 2 years old and we have had no issues using it with
a current cygwin on XP or 7, although there have been problems with
cygwin on vista but I believe the cygwin team have sorted out those
issues quite a while ago. For eCos/eCosPro 3.0 we only officially
supported Windows XP, although we do have customers successfully using
the tools on Windows 7.

Our switch to native Windows for the GNU tools was mainly for the
speedup and to remove the complexities some of our customers were
encountering with installing and administering cygwin on their
tightly-locked-down corporate desktops.  If you have full control of the
PC, you should not encounter any difficulties (although from what you
mention, you dont have that luxury).


> So the question is: are there plans by ecoscetric to contribute a newer
> arm-eabi windows toolchain to the public? That would be really great,
> because I really don't like to build one on my own for windows... That
> one in the commercial version being cygwin-free raised my attention and
> this question ;)
Sorry, I cannot comment on any plans regarding contributing the newer
4.4.5 toolchain or our eCosPro 3.1 release for commercial reasons.

However, there is no reason I know of why you cannot get the cygwin
hosted 4.3.2 arm-eabi toolchain we contributed 2 years ago working for
you. There are many Windows users on this list that are successfully
using it without any problems.  Perhaps you could be specific about what
kind of issues you are seeing so one of them could answer :-)

Cheers
-- Alex


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Re: [ECOS] Development environment under Windows without cygwin?

[Manuel Borchers]

Am Freitag, den 13.05.2011, 12:13 +0100 schrieb Alex Schuilenburg: 
> I strongly suggest you switch to eCos 3.0/anoncvs and the arm-eabi gcc
> 4.3.2 (cygwin hosted) we contributed to the eCos 3.0 public release

Actually, I am on CVS. I did the testing with this old compiler version,
because that's what we have installed in the lab ('cause the IDE is
little old and at that point 4.0.3 was considered stable).

> You probably have found a linker/compiler bug.  Not many people
> appreciate the effort we put into testing the GNU tools on real hardware

I really much appreciate having the ecoscentric provided toolchains!
Sorry, if my last mail sounded offending, that was really not what it
should be! 

> I disagree and I find this surprising.  The 4.3.2 arm-eabi toolchain
> contribution is only 2 years old and we have had no issues using it with
> a current cygwin on XP or 7, although there have been problems with
> cygwin on vista but I believe the cygwin team have sorted out those
> issues quite a while ago. For eCos/eCosPro 3.0 we only officially
> supported Windows XP, although we do have customers successfully using
> the tools on Windows 7.

I retried the whole setup. I got it working well when I'm inside the
cygwin shell (bash).

> tightly-locked-down corporate desktops.  If you have full control of the
> PC, you should not encounter any difficulties (although from what you
> mention, you dont have that luxury).

That's the tricky part. I would really like to avoid installing anything
to the boxes (we have three labs with 5 pcs each, doing that by hand is
a nightmare ;) My first attempts were to eliminate the need to install
the complete cygwin environment. I hoped to just copy the needed dlls
over to the toolchain and could run directly from the windows command
promt.
That's what's working with the 4.0.3 toolchain from our normal IDE
(Hitex HiTop, by the way); they just have the cywin1.dll in the bin path
and that's it.
The same fails for the arm-eabi-4.3.2 toolchain. I'm going to experiment
a bit more by coping over the cygwin dirs to a network drive and running
a modified batch script to start-up the bash shell on the lab PCs.

But if you (or someone else on the list) have any other hints on how I
could work without the full cygwin, that would be great.

Cheers and thanks for your help!
Manuel

-- 
Dipl.-Ing. Manuel Borchers

Technische Universität Berlin
Institut für Energie- und Automatisierungstechnik
Fachgebiet Elektronik und medizinische Signalverarbeitung

Sekretariat EN3
Einsteinufer 17
10587 Berlin
Germany

Tel.: +49 (30) 314-21072
Raum: EN-509

Home: http://www.emsp.tu-berlin.de/
eMail: manuel.borchers@tu-berlin.de


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Re: [ECOS] Development environment under Windows without cygwin?

[Alex Schuilenburg]

On 2011-05-16 08:18, Manuel Borchers wrote:
> Am Freitag, den 13.05.2011, 12:13 +0100 schrieb Alex Schuilenburg: 
>> I strongly suggest you switch to eCos 3.0/anoncvs and the arm-eabi gcc
>> 4.3.2 (cygwin hosted) we contributed to the eCos 3.0 public release
> Actually, I am on CVS. I did the testing with this old compiler version,
> because that's what we have installed in the lab ('cause the IDE is
> little old and at that point 4.0.3 was considered stable).

That's interesting as I am surprised you got anywhere using arm-elf on
CVS as CVS has been moved over to use arm-eabi for all 3.0 ARM targets. 

Maybe you are using an older target that has not been updated - what is
your target?

>> You probably have found a linker/compiler bug.  Not many people
>> appreciate the effort we put into testing the GNU tools on real hardware
> I really much appreciate having the ecoscentric provided toolchains!
> Sorry, if my last mail sounded offending, that was really not what it
> should be! 
None taken - I was just pointing out that you cannot expect arbitrary
toolchains to just work.  We put a lot of effort into testing and fixing
the tools.  Because we have our own tests with many different
configurations we tend to find optimisation bugs, edge conditions, etc
which otherwise would escape undetected - not much chance of
finding/fixing a problem when it is in a satellite in orbit :-/



>> I disagree and I find this surprising.  The 4.3.2 arm-eabi toolchain
>> contribution is only 2 years old and we have had no issues using it with
>> a current cygwin on XP or 7, although there have been problems with
>> cygwin on vista but I believe the cygwin team have sorted out those
>> issues quite a while ago. For eCos/eCosPro 3.0 we only officially
>> supported Windows XP, although we do have customers successfully using
>> the tools on Windows 7.
> I retried the whole setup. I got it working well when I'm inside the
> cygwin shell (bash).

Good, so its working...


>> tightly-locked-down corporate desktops.  If you have full control of the
>> PC, you should not encounter any difficulties (although from what you
>> mention, you dont have that luxury).
> That's the tricky part. I would really like to avoid installing anything
> to the boxes (we have three labs with 5 pcs each, doing that by hand is
> a nightmare ;) My first attempts were to eliminate the need to install
> the complete cygwin environment. I hoped to just copy the needed dlls
> over to the toolchain and could run directly from the windows command
> promt.
> That's what's working with the 4.0.3 toolchain from our normal IDE
> (Hitex HiTop, by the way); they just have the cywin1.dll in the bin path
> and that's it.
> The same fails for the arm-eabi-4.3.2 toolchain. I'm going to experiment
> a bit more by coping over the cygwin dirs to a network drive and running
> a modified batch script to start-up the bash shell on the lab PCs.
>
> But if you (or someone else on the list) have any other hints on how I
> could work without the full cygwin, that would be great.
I am not sure what you mean by the full cygwin.  Do you mean running the
cygwin installer, or do you just want to copy over DLLs? Certainly the
full cygwin is not needed and you only need the base tools and a small
additional subset of tools/libs. The list of what you need is on the
sourceware website (somewhere, sorry I cannot be more specific).  I
would not recommend the latter since the installer sets up registry
entries (like mountpoints) which would probably cause you grief in
setting up the env properly.

I dont know anything about Hitex HiTop, but if it uses its own cygwin
environment, you may run into trouble as you cannot have two different
cygwin environments on the same machine running simultaneously.  Maybe
look at adding the missing packages to the other cygwin env and try
running within that?

HTH
-- Alex


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Re: [ECOS] Development environment under Windows without cygwin?

[Manuel Borchers]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2265 bytes --]

Am Montag, den 16.05.2011, 12:28 +0100 schrieb Alex Schuilenburg:
> That's interesting as I am surprised you got anywhere using arm-elf on
> CVS as CVS has been moved over to use arm-eabi for all 3.0 ARM targets. 
> 
> Maybe you are using an older target that has not been updated - what is
> your target?

I am using my own platform port. It's an ARM926 based SoC (actually
there are several SoCs from Hilscher, some of them ARM966 based). I
derived the port from the ARM Integrator and Innovator platform ports.
So, the port has been moved to EABI and that's what I'm normally using.
Using elf 4.0.3 was just a try to use the infrastructure of the lab PCs
as it is/was ;)

> I am not sure what you mean by the full cygwin.  Do you mean running the
> cygwin installer, or do you just want to copy over DLLs? Certainly the
> full cygwin is not needed and you only need the base tools and a small
> additional subset of tools/libs. The list of what you need is on the
> sourceware website (somewhere, sorry I cannot be more specific).  I
> would not recommend the latter since the installer sets up registry
> entries (like mountpoints) which would probably cause you grief in
> setting up the env properly.

Actually, what I was trying to do was to get the provided EABI toolchain
running without a cygwin install, i.e. just using the dlls, but not all
the other stuff (make and friends, bash, etc.)

That's what the Hitex provided gcc (4.0.3 elf) was doing. There was just
cygwin1.dll in the binary dir of gcc/binutils and that was it.

I failed doing so, but I got a setup for the lab PCs using a basic
cygwin install, that I just needed to copy over to the machines. It's
running with a modified /etc/profile so that all users on all the
machines run as user ecos with home /home/ecos. 
I wrote some batch scripts to fire up cygwin with correctly set PATHs
for the students. Missing registry keys weren't a problem at all.

So, it's up and running now in the lab. I just finished assembling my
self-built USB2JTAG converters, so I'll know on Monday if the students
run into any problems ;)


Cheers and thanks for your pointers!
Manuel

-- 
Manuel Borchers

Web: http://www.matronix.de
eMail: manuel@matronix.de

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Re: [ECOS] Development environment under Windows without cygwin?

[Guenter Ebermann]

Hi,

> Do anybody knows a way to work without cygwin natively on Windows?
>
> It seems, that cygwin is causing several problems on different windows
> environments.
> Is there a way to work without cygwin?
> Is the gnu compiler/linker toolchain available for windows? Which versions
> are comparable to the arm-eabi-gcc V4.3.2 ?
> Is it possible to run the eCos Config Tool without cygwin?

We use the same linux VM on all our developer work stations under a
windows host at the moment. Also for building eCos. No Problems so far.

In the past we also maintained a cygwin-free mingw-based gcc/make
Buildenvironment. But only building ecos applications, not eCos itself.

If you have problems with the moving cygwin target you can also setup
local cygwin repositories with a fixed version where all developers get
their cygwin from.

Best solution for us was the linux VM. Least trouble.

best regards,
Guenter

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