From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pf1-x433.google.com (mail-pf1-x433.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::433]) by sourceware.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DD233858D33 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2023 04:50:30 +0000 (GMT) DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.4.2 sourceware.org 6DD233858D33 Authentication-Results: sourceware.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=gmail.com Authentication-Results: sourceware.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=gmail.com Received: by mail-pf1-x433.google.com with SMTP id a184so5387617pfa.9 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2023 20:50:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:subject:from:content-language :references:cc:to:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=bSSre+Fff6jfe3dKUrr0VC6C6kCZyUecp1R4d3fLn44=; b=CwdJU7TcF9nJY6TRHB+Tykuh9dyPYzhNReOIgm93+gBRPVe1kMK2vnwFpHYfH39xnk uFZrgYmKxIjt9OpkYZk0RBXDp6zK4QMrXZElXHfyWawBa+DpRcgn/QLRZ41ouBJ5zBdf n/kaw1VaGBj2LwNplyFE4b+BihRNuMRUlcbwDak3maPdfm7AmgtbuRZMwRiYU4LHqUUA +PenYVmT9CoowuI7oG+maEs4/XJGQ/4dxH/zUALpdLvaTRnxq0gU3wwR0Uo9qmPWLPuI PAkXr3UicfdvP1L8xgKcSTwkmoI5/uRukGTZ/E646qGIdm2wM1r4Jxwufq7/MmhEvjHy 4vBg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:subject:from:content-language :references:cc:to:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=bSSre+Fff6jfe3dKUrr0VC6C6kCZyUecp1R4d3fLn44=; b=oohR81v+VsY/XOnVkXzkFDIU5cfJ9WCYpqGft/q2cSCyTqW+FBxWO/pAzft3NavAMj V1gdzOq5hwVt5aB0iswBczdGqElkdcBf/5wkafGmvh3KdAKJl0cjVBqaBRcTPuPkqCOP sV8WJV7MXGD+iltKGiMCqK4qfbHvB+J/5z6A30di+9FEtqJ23pcQqmlY7zcxk8n2ImMk tqVFicn+CJ/SEdz5LwzMiOMXQ1oCQveHUy050lQixdkKcVDd4pRh4mf/l8XlOKqxDyJH bvlxsxAiTC3aluxq3lzd91PVsRGUZPeu8xuKZtbmEtvwlDftdZjvhYWmV0QRhUNAPINT gLnw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2krqCoytXUvpKDIrS0s/V5oycJ21NF4k/snpcxvp/ofKalKeSnjw RogUTZ6jhFdZNZWVB5LepsU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXsHx7fOpJmkx7oSTOK7GO48SNem5521HqcabHqAiRLkoszo++TcUMZVVxvxpL6p5v7/eLpgkQ== X-Received: by 2002:a62:87c9:0:b0:587:4621:9645 with SMTP id i192-20020a6287c9000000b0058746219645mr4230153pfe.1.1674276629296; Fri, 20 Jan 2023 20:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.20] ([50.37.188.226]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f127-20020a623885000000b00588cb819473sm22412093pfa.39.2023.01.20.20.50.28 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 20 Jan 2023 20:50:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <17c0f611-8b7a-b3ea-ae45-7a6f717139fd@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 20:50:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.6.0 To: Benson Muite , NightStrike , Bernhard Reutner-Fischer Cc: NightStrike via Fortran , Toon Moene References: <6e48ab2c-f006-c57f-db39-2b3efb6b30a4@gmail.com> <397bf74b-4528-f4a8-5a7e-88e7ba10bb38@emailplus.org> <532b28b1-4ace-7e8d-21fc-188739f1497f@moene.org> <67368315-70A6-4D5D-9CCE-0890EE0FEB0E@gmail.com> Content-Language: en-US From: Jerry D Subject: Re: Team Collaboration Considerations In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT,FREEMAIL_FROM,FREEMAIL_REPLY,KAM_EU,NICE_REPLY_A,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS,TXREP autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.6 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.6 (2021-04-09) on server2.sourceware.org List-Id: On 1/19/23 10:21 PM, Benson Muite via Fortran wrote: > On 1/19/23 22:03, NightStrike wrote: >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 13:33 Bernhard Reutner-Fischer >> > wrote: >> >> On 19 January 2023 13:52:55 CET, NightStrike via Fortran >> > wrote: >> >> >You can, and people naturally do this, and I think it's great, but >> >there's usually a response from someone saying "post that to the >> >mailing list instead". >> >> The mailing list has a 20-30 year history with reasoning about what >> currently is in the tree. I do think it is valuable to reason about >> patches publically for others to see. And I'm aware that this might >> not be regarded fancy nowadays by everyone. >> >> But that does not mean that using other means to collaborate should >> not be used by some. Be it comp.lang.fortran, a webchat.oftc, or >> other means, that's all fine of course. >> >> patches currently are handled differently, but I don't think that is >> a problem isn't it. >> Just post final patches to the list as long as that is regarded the >> way to do final review and document approval. >> >> cheers, >> >> >> The problem is that patch tracking is unsustainable. You could go the >> other way and have a patch tracker automatically echo messages to the >> mailing list. >> > Review is done voluntarily and by email. The process has flexibility to > increase productivity but it may make it harder to get involved. Email > threads and metadata make it possible to track patches. It is expected, > but not enforced, that posts to the mailing list follow convention. > Until a comment on a patch is posted, it is unclear if it will be > reviewed. Build results are tracked separately and builds done when > needed. An open review process is good. Do all patches get timely > reviews? Can this process be improved? > > An analysis of a developer community: > https://carlschwan.eu/2021/04/29/health-of-the-kde-community/ > > Some tools: > https://chaoss.github.io/grimoirelab/ > https://framagit.org/ervin/ComDaAn > https://github.com/gotec/git2net > > Will try some of these to analyze GCC, though something new maybe needed > since the workflow is quite different. What I am envisioning as a workflow is to retain posting to the gfortran list for approvals to commit. At this stage patches are refined and tested already by the developer and therefore have the most value for the public and people wanting to learn. Mattermost would be used for internal discussions and collaboration. People can post questions and examples back and forth quickly by phone, or web browser or desktop app interfaces. This can be done in real-time much better than email. Email certainly is a necessary component as a formal review process. Regarding patches and such. Mattermost supports "boards" which are actually modeled after Kanban, a very well established methodolgy. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanban. It allows one to see at a glance where things are at. Individuals can chat with each other privately and we can also set up specific channels. For example, I have set up for the gfortran workspace the following channels: Finalization Gfortran Development Gfortran Front End Gfortran Help Gtk-Fortran Development Gtk-Fortran Help Native Gfortran Coarrays Town Square - for anythin There is nothing sacred about these, they are simply things I thought of during initial setup. Thes can evolve as developers determine and learn this tool. The point is, the channels are focus points. I have a board where I am tracking bugs we know have patches submitted in bugzilla that need to get tested and committed. So, this tool does not replace bugzilla either. It is a tool for us to visualize where we are, Work In Process. We can create a board to track patches if we choose. In a sense, I am doing that already. By the way, anyone who wishes to get on the team, send me an email. We will keep evolving this tool as we go. Cheers, Jerry