From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by sourceware.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE7D03858D20 for ; Wed, 31 May 2023 08:43:05 +0000 (GMT) DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.4.2 sourceware.org DE7D03858D20 Authentication-Results: sourceware.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=emailplus.org Authentication-Results: sourceware.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=emailplus.org Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E8F35C00FD; Wed, 31 May 2023 04:43:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 31 May 2023 04:43:04 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=emailplus.org; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type :date:date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id :mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm1; t=1685522584; x=1685608984; bh=hccA+BB996rDVKh1LyDp2NG7Q w0ZMgZL1YsBtOgTERo=; b=LCKZPo6DTr5pJouIMvXWKDTOFCC/A7k/3wVms3PDj 5KeZk/olD3eSN/HNTOQ9KVzDTdPpNw5mYx4HBr/IbzSTM0ow+90+oFUvECirLlWG dYbGHOmSO7wtwrI/4/Wnw10SEKhceAb8LeNvxUX4qqidK2K7cGX0bkc8g1QYlqRv EHQtcq7vZcfcqgmpKQtZhGZZErlAQ7TsNJ4pt/CDR2+U4/6g3bojZGzonEldJG6Y /ZvTgNbFc+2khIHqsFE7TTAaFs4m2dPTDLzgl8VU5j7gGzV8h1ifvywYwprIR1nN KhISEvu3ym/4viQcstPXFLdFlfvEtbrclgZvzLf5RloWg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id :from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; t= 1685522584; x=1685608984; bh=hccA+BB996rDVKh1LyDp2NG7Qw0ZMgZL1Ys BtOgTERo=; b=RWFWBnnSfADgyOL3ULqqByspn3xo22Htm4Z0X8kP594hNpas5o5 QUA11xyBhbFpaHbx5R0PyA6S+pGmvoSEr6iv81dM+OgKB7UH83lldejQbcmkEYqk iICb3JAXtFMu3/IvHbKqBqpypfPH5pBd4kv2I8w1M9xK+YvdrPQ660tbsbJQJArM 2WBqhizhplue34x6yff3/dt1utWYGOyvDc7quuIHyP8hrGxocpSD4gnfzlUjQBQk Z9hT7SbZU1ZNkKKzRhyqfMYm7x/i+DsamjgYXqI8QyaLuDpsUOGhnAFJCGvs8ksv 1n2xXebZNCAOWCftD4KyyONGy9ng70kxRPA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvhedrfeekledgtdeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne gfrhhlucfvnfffucdlqddutddmnecujfgurhepkfffgggfvfevfhfhufgjtgfgsehtkeer tddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpeeuvghnshhonhcuofhuihhtvgcuoegsvghnshhonhgpmhhuih htvgesvghmrghilhhplhhushdrohhrgheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkeejgffhleej kedufedvffffhfekieefgfehueehleeludehtdetfeefudeuteeknecuffhomhgrihhnpe guvhhmqdhshihsthgvmhdrohhrghdpgigtrghlrggslhgvmhhprdhorhhgpdhlsghlrdhg ohhvnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepsg gvnhhsohhnpghmuhhithgvsegvmhgrihhlphhluhhsrdhorhhg X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: ic1e8415a:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 31 May 2023 04:42:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 11:42:26 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.11.0 To: Thomas Koenig , Andre Vehreschild , Jerry D Cc: Mikael Morin , Paul Richard Thomas , GCC-Fortran-ML , Lexi Pimenidis References: <4697f7be-ac3e-8c5d-f27c-3aec89b5b03f@protonmail.com> <0d923990-0b7a-a1ea-8389-bf3837e73ed0@gmail.com> <737bbf36-04a8-c1e4-b3aa-31121df66013@netcologne.de> <20230527132414.50184389@vepi2> <105c761a-5030-aee5-6587-2783a794f469@gmail.com> <20230530153242.54728d4d@vepi2> <2fa3240f-fbb8-23b6-2a10-24f9a415f729@netcologne.de> <5bde7c1f-3524-7f2e-fd48-a4b97734e2b9@emailplus.org> <2f95809c-8f0b-7d75-ca62-aeee11c6bee0@netcologne.de> Content-Language: en-US From: Benson Muite Subject: Re: Possible funding of gfortran work In-Reply-To: <2f95809c-8f0b-7d75-ca62-aeee11c6bee0@netcologne.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,BODY_8BITS,DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,FREEMAIL_FROM,KAM_SHORT,NICE_REPLY_A,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL,SPF_HELO_PASS,SPF_PASS,TXREP,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE,WINNER_SUBJECT autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.6 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.6 (2021-04-09) on server2.sourceware.org List-Id: On 5/31/23 09:08, Thomas Koenig wrote: > On 31.05.23 05:46, Benson Muite wrote: >> On 5/30/23 23:08, Thomas Koenig via Fortran wrote: > > >>>> * Complete language intrinsic parallel programming paradigm coarrays. >>>> This >>>>     includes completing native coarray support (thread based). As > well as >>>>     refactoring of the library based  coarray approach to support >>>> coarrays in >>>>     modules. I.e. research on how to support the use of coarrays in >>>> modules that >>>>     are not aware of coarrays (not compiled with its support enabled). >>> >> Is distributed memory support for co-arrays of interest as well? There >> is a lot of code that uses MPI (for which there is some push for using >> more modern Fortran features), and there are also other libraries such >> as GASPI. > > We already support OpenCoarrays via -fcoarray=lib, which is MPI-based > (or at least can use MPI).  I guess that OpenCoarrays could be modified > to use GASPI, but this would likely be a separate (if related) project. > Ok. One of the large use cases for Fortran is high performance computing. Other distributed memory efforts include: http://dvm-system.org/en/ https://xcalablemp.org/ MPI seems like it will evolve to use many new Fortran features so that Fortran and C bindings are similar, though it maybe the case that most Fortran codes will evolve to use co-arrays. GPU and other accelerator support may also be worth improving. > We would have to check about license requirements, though - I'm not sure > if the implementation of GASPI is free enough for the Soverereign Tech > Fund (at least Wikipedia claims it's "pay for commercial users", > which would be consistent with the business model of the Fraunhofer > Institutes.) > > >>> (There is Intel, which is dog-slow, and there is NAG, which costs >>> money). >> Is this also expected in Flang? See: >> > https://crd.lbl.gov/divisions/amcr/computer-science-amcr/class/research/caffeine/ >> > https://crd.lbl.gov/divisions/amcr/computer-science-amcr/class/research/caffeine/ >> Probably good to make a case for two open source compilers. > > We're concerned with gfortran here.  A lot of work and money has gone > into flang that I sometimes think would have been better spent on > gfortran, then we would be in a better position overall today. > > But I am hoping that this initiative can cure at least part of that. May need to convince reviewers why Flang alone is insufficient. > >>> Fortran remains one of the premier language for science, especially for >>> high-performance computing and fields like quantum chemistry or >>> computational fluid dynamics. >>> >>> gfortran is the default Fortran compiler on Linux systems, and lack of >>> features and bugs in in gfortran hinder adoption of more modern, safer >>> and more efficient language features. The project has been almost >>> entirely volunteer-driven so far, but is currently suffering from >>> a lack of active developers.  Funding will motivate experienced >>> gfortran developers who have reduced their contributions to return >>> to the project and advance it substantially. >>> Maybe worth mentioning tools like R which use many Fortran libraries. Most use Fortran 77 though. >>> >> Any possibilities for new contributors to participate? > > We should avoid bringing people in who spend all the money just > familiarizing themselves with the compiler, producing no useful > output in the end. > > I think that contributors should have demonstrated that they are > capable of working productively with gfortran, and the best way > to demonstrate that is to already have a track record of accepted > patches (preferably gfortran, but also gcc in general). That does not > mean that this track record needs to be years or decades old, but it > should exist. > > Also, people recommended by a current contributor should be able > to participate; but we should probably discuss people who apply > on a case-by-case basis. This is ok. But many new developers are looking at Julia and Python, comfortably retired developers may not be as motivated to return by funding, but might mentor in critical areas. > > (The above is my personal opinion, please discuss if anybody has > a different opinion). > > Best regards > >     Thomas