Re: Handspring, gcc and gpl: appearance vs. reality

Re: Handspring, gcc and gpl: appearance vs. reality

[Peter W]

Till Harbaum wrote:

> Under http://info.handspring.com/developers_kit.html
> Handspring offers a development kit for their soon to
> come visor pdas. Some of the tools in this package
> are based on gnu tools which all come under the gpl.

Please be more specific. Handspring's SDK is divided in two parts:

1) Cygwin.exe Ver B20.1
2) PalmOSGNUToolsLite.exe REV 1.02

The first sounds like a standard Cygnus win32 SDK. If Handspring
hasn't modified it, then I don't see any big deal in not making source
available on Handspring's site.

The second is the Palm-specific stuff. What GPL'ed code does it use?
Any? Are you certain that Handspring is building on top of GPL'ed code
improperly, or is this just a naming issue, like "CodeWarrior for
Linux, GNU Edition"?

-Peter

Re: Handspring, gcc and ignoring the gpl

[Russell Senior]

>>>>> "Barry" == Barry Margolin <barmar@bbnplanet.com> writes:

Barry> It sounds like they screwed up by not realizing the
Barry> implications of releasing software that was derived from code
Barry> with incompatible licenses.  It sounds like they're trying to
Barry> resolve it as best they can, but it will take a couple of weeks
Barry> to work out the issues.  What more do you expect them to do?

Well, pull the binary if they haven't already.

-- 
Russell Senior         ``The two chiefs turned to each other.        
seniorr@teleport.com     Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible       
                         profanity, which, translated meant, `This is
                         extremely unusual.' ''                      

Re: Handspring, gcc and ignoring the gpl

[Tom Whittaker]

Till Harbaum <harbaum@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> wrote in message
news:yksd7uclibg.fsf@flens.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de ...
> "Tom Whittaker" <whittaker@home.com> writes:
<smip>

> I don't expect them to have everything lying around distribution
> ready all time. But they decided to use gpl software (noone enforces
> them to do that and there are excellent commercial palm compilers
> out there) and there is no reason for them not to follow the gpl
> rules.
>

I have to admit, see the GNU letters but not being able to get the source
is unsettling. I hope Handspring does the right thing.

Tom

> Once a company starts breaking the gpl just a little bit, the
> next one will perhaps do it just a little more ...
>
> Ciao,
>   Till

Re: Handspring, gcc and gpl: appearance vs. reality

[Jeffrey A Law]

  In message < 380BCAC3.5D7B54A8@NoJunkMail.usa.net >you write:
  > 1) Cygwin.exe Ver B20.1
  > 2) PalmOSGNUToolsLite.exe REV 1.02
  > 
  > The first sounds like a standard Cygnus win32 SDK. If Handspring
  > hasn't modified it, then I don't see any big deal in not making source
  > available on Handspring's site.
Err, cygwin is GPL'd.  It *is* a big deal; that is a clear violation of the
GPL.  

Does anyone have a contact address at this site?  It's probably an innocent
mistake, but we to do due diligence and follow-up.

jeff

Re: Handspring, gcc and ignoring the gpl

[Volker Hetzer]

Till Harbaum wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> 
> Under http://info.handspring.com/developers_kit.html
> Handspring offers a development kit for their soon to
> come visor pdas. Some of the tools in this package
> are based on gnu tools which all come under the gpl.
[...]

> What to do now? I really don't like the idea of companies
> taking gpl'd code and including it into their binary
> distributions without folwing the open-source concept.
gcc is maintained at Cygnus. www.cygnus.com.
Tell them.
Greetings!
Volker
-- 
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!

Re: Handspring, gcc and ignoring the gpl

[Jeffrey A Law]

  In message < 380C2608.C3BD7CAF@abg1.siemens.de >you write:
  > > Under http://info.handspring.com/developers_kit.html
  > > Handspring offers a development kit for their soon to
  > > come visor pdas. Some of the tools in this package
  > > are based on gnu tools which all come under the gpl.
  > [...]
  > 
  > > What to do now? I really don't like the idea of companies
  > > taking gpl'd code and including it into their binary
  > > distributions without folwing the open-source concept.
  > gcc is maintained at Cygnus. www.cygnus.com.
Actually it's the FSF that would have to take action if these folks
are violating the copyright on any of the GNU tools since the FSF
owns the copyright on GCC, GAS, GDB, etc.

Cygnus would have to take up the issue with cygwin since Cygnus owns
the copyright on cygwin.

I've already sent mail to RMS & our licensing department to have them
contact handspring.com.

To clarify one final issue.  Cygnus does not maintain GCC.

Cygnus provides resources and manpower to GCC and several Cygnus engineers
contribute to gcc.  But the same applies to other companies and individuals.

jeff

Re: Handspring, gcc and ignoring the gpl

[Rémi Letot]

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Matthew Sparks wrote:
> 
> Technically they haven't released their software yet.
They released the binary form, it's "in the wild",  they must release
the source for it, no matter what problems they have, the source exists
and works. Noone forced them to use GPL'd code. They did so, they must
follow the rules.

-- 

- Rémi -
Remove ".nospam" for mail copies of the answers

Re: Handspring, gcc and ignoring the gpl

[Rémi Letot]

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Barry Margolin wrote:

> It sounds like they screwed up by not realizing the implications of
> releasing software that was derived from code with incompatible licenses.
By not releasing the source they chose to break the GPL, apparently to
avoid breaking another licence. You are right, the licence may be
incompatible, but that's not an excuse, it's an explanation.

-- 

- Rémi -
Remove ".nospam" for mail copies of the answers

Re: Handspring, gcc and ignoring the gpl

[Volker Hetzer]

Jeffrey A Law wrote:
> Actually it's the FSF that would have to take action if these folks
> are violating the copyright on any of the GNU tools since the FSF
> owns the copyright on GCC, GAS, GDB, etc.
I was mentioning you since you probably have a commercial interest in
enforcing the GPL.

> To clarify one final issue.  Cygnus does not maintain GCC.
> 
> Cygnus provides resources and manpower to GCC and several Cygnus engineers
> contribute to gcc.  But the same applies to other companies and individuals.
To clarify the clarification:
What does the phrase "the EGCS steering team ... hosted by Cygnus..." mean?
I found that in the first paragraph of the media alert in http://www.cygnus.com/news/lhost.html .

Greetings!
Volker
-- 
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!

Re: Handspring, gcc and ignoring the gpl

[Till Harbaum]

Peter W <peterw@NoJunkMail.usa.net> wrote:

> Please be more specific. Handspring's SDK is divided in two parts:

> 1) Cygwin.exe Ver B20.1
> 2) PalmOSGNUToolsLite.exe REV 1.02

> The first sounds like a standard Cygnus win32 SDK. If Handspring
It obviously is. 
> hasn't modified it, then I don't see any big deal in not making source
> available on Handspring's site.
So why din't they? Did they just not read the gpl? 

> The second is the Palm-specific stuff. What GPL'ed code does it use?
> Any? Are you certain that Handspring is building on top of GPL'ed code
> improperly, or is this just a naming issue, like "CodeWarrior for
> Linux, GNU Edition"?

Uhm, you are kidding, right? First the name: 'GNU tools' has nothing to
do with GPL (GNU public license)? 

And where did you get the information that the tools are based on 
CodeWarrior? The archive i downloaded from handsprings web site 
contains files like 'palm-gcc' and 'palm-gdb'. Unless Codewarrior
was renamed to gcc/gdb, this archive is based to 99% on gpl'd source 
code.

Ciao,
  Till

Re: Handspring, gcc and ignoring the gpl

[Barry Margolin]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
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In article < 380C33ED.2B4F@advalvas.be >,
Rémi Letot  <remi.letot.nospam@advalvas.be> wrote:
>Matthew Sparks wrote:
>> 
>> Technically they haven't released their software yet.
>They released the binary form, it's "in the wild",  they must release
>the source for it, no matter what problems they have, the source exists
>and works. Noone forced them to use GPL'd code. They did so, they must
>follow the rules.

The GPL can't force them to violate other licenses.  GPL clause 7
specifically says:

    If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your
    obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations,
    then as a consequence you may not distribute the Program at all.

They can't go back in time and undo the fact that they distributed the
binaries in the first place, so the best they can do is stop distributing
them now that they've been informed of the conflict.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barmar@bbnplanet.com
GTE Internetworking, Powered by BBN, Burlington, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.

Re: Handspring, gcc and ignoring the gpl

[Jeffrey A Law]

  In message < 380C35CB.1C2737@abg1.siemens.de >you write:
  > I was mentioning you since you probably have a commercial interest in
  > enforcing the GPL.
Whether or not we have a commercial interest in enforcing the GPL, we have
no legal standing except where we own the copyright (ie cygwin).  Only the
owner of a piece of software can take action to enforce copyrights.

  > What does the phrase "the EGCS steering team ... hosted by Cygnus..." mean?
  > I found that in the first paragraph of the media alert in http://www.cygnus
  > .com/news/lhost.html .
Cygnus provides hardware, network taps and manpower.  ie, we host the project,
but that does not mean Cygnus controls or runs the project.

jeff

Re: Handspring, gcc and ignoring the gpl

[Peter W]

Till Harbaum wrote:

> Under http://info.handspring.com/developers_kit.html
> Handspring offers a development kit for their soon to
> come visor pdas. Some of the tools in this package
> are based on gnu tools which all come under the gpl.

> Unfortunately they don't want to release [the source code] now. They
>
> told me to wait some week and to return to their pages
> then to download the sources, since they don't want to
> publish the current version.

This is essentially the same response I got today (1999/10/25, one
week after your post, and six days after I emailed them). I was told
that the source code "should" be up "this week". To which I responded
that the GPL, particulary sections 5 and 7, make it quite clear that
they cannot release binaries without making source available. We'll
see.

-Peter

Re: Handspring, gcc and ignoring the gpl

[Jeffrey B. Siegal]

Till Harbaum wrote:
> What to do now?

See http://www.fsf.org/copyleft/gpl-violation.html

Re: Handspring, gcc, source now available

[Peter W]

Till Harbaum wrote:

> Under http://info.handspring.com/developers_kit.html
> Handspring offers a development kit for their soon to
> come visor pdas. Some of the tools in this package
> are based on gnu tools which all come under the gpl.

The source code is now avaiable on
http://www.handspring.com/developers/developers_kit.asp

Thanks, Handspring !

Re: Handspring, gcc and gpl: appearance vs. reality

[Jeffrey A Law]

  In message < 380BCAC3.5D7B54A8@NoJunkMail.usa.net >you write:
  > 1) Cygwin.exe Ver B20.1
  > 2) PalmOSGNUToolsLite.exe REV 1.02
  > 
  > The first sounds like a standard Cygnus win32 SDK. If Handspring
  > hasn't modified it, then I don't see any big deal in not making source
  > available on Handspring's site.
Err, cygwin is GPL'd.  It *is* a big deal; that is a clear violation of the
GPL.  

Does anyone have a contact address at this site?  It's probably an innocent
mistake, but we to do due diligence and follow-up.

jeff

Re: Handspring, gcc and ignoring the gpl

[Rémi Letot]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
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Matthew Sparks wrote:
> 
> Technically they haven't released their software yet.
They released the binary form, it's "in the wild",  they must release
the source for it, no matter what problems they have, the source exists
and works. Noone forced them to use GPL'd code. They did so, they must
follow the rules.

-- 

- Rémi -
Remove ".nospam" for mail copies of the answers

Re: Handspring, gcc and ignoring the gpl

[Peter W]

Till Harbaum wrote:

> Under http://info.handspring.com/developers_kit.html
> Handspring offers a development kit for their soon to
> come visor pdas. Some of the tools in this package
> are based on gnu tools which all come under the gpl.

> Unfortunately they don't want to release [the source code] now. They
>
> told me to wait some week and to return to their pages
> then to download the sources, since they don't want to
> publish the current version.

This is essentially the same response I got today (1999/10/25, one
week after your post, and six days after I emailed them). I was told
that the source code "should" be up "this week". To which I responded
that the GPL, particulary sections 5 and 7, make it quite clear that
they cannot release binaries without making source available. We'll
see.

-Peter

Re: Handspring, gcc and ignoring the gpl

[Russell Senior]

>>>>> "Barry" == Barry Margolin <barmar@bbnplanet.com> writes:

Barry> It sounds like they screwed up by not realizing the
Barry> implications of releasing software that was derived from code
Barry> with incompatible licenses.  It sounds like they're trying to
Barry> resolve it as best they can, but it will take a couple of weeks
Barry> to work out the issues.  What more do you expect them to do?

Well, pull the binary if they haven't already.

-- 
Russell Senior         ``The two chiefs turned to each other.        
seniorr@teleport.com     Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible       
                         profanity, which, translated meant, `This is
                         extremely unusual.' ''                      

Re: Handspring, gcc and ignoring the gpl

[Barry Margolin]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
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In article < 380C33ED.2B4F@advalvas.be >,
Rémi Letot  <remi.letot.nospam@advalvas.be> wrote:
>Matthew Sparks wrote:
>> 
>> Technically they haven't released their software yet.
>They released the binary form, it's "in the wild",  they must release
>the source for it, no matter what problems they have, the source exists
>and works. Noone forced them to use GPL'd code. They did so, they must
>follow the rules.

The GPL can't force them to violate other licenses.  GPL clause 7
specifically says:

    If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your
    obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations,
    then as a consequence you may not distribute the Program at all.

They can't go back in time and undo the fact that they distributed the
binaries in the first place, so the best they can do is stop distributing
them now that they've been informed of the conflict.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barmar@bbnplanet.com
GTE Internetworking, Powered by BBN, Burlington, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.

Re: Handspring, gcc and ignoring the gpl

[Volker Hetzer]

Till Harbaum wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> 
> Under http://info.handspring.com/developers_kit.html
> Handspring offers a development kit for their soon to
> come visor pdas. Some of the tools in this package
> are based on gnu tools which all come under the gpl.
[...]

> What to do now? I really don't like the idea of companies
> taking gpl'd code and including it into their binary
> distributions without folwing the open-source concept.
gcc is maintained at Cygnus. www.cygnus.com.
Tell them.
Greetings!
Volker
-- 
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!

Re: Handspring, gcc and ignoring the gpl

[Jeffrey A Law]

  In message < 380C2608.C3BD7CAF@abg1.siemens.de >you write:
  > > Under http://info.handspring.com/developers_kit.html
  > > Handspring offers a development kit for their soon to
  > > come visor pdas. Some of the tools in this package
  > > are based on gnu tools which all come under the gpl.
  > [...]
  > 
  > > What to do now? I really don't like the idea of companies
  > > taking gpl'd code and including it into their binary
  > > distributions without folwing the open-source concept.
  > gcc is maintained at Cygnus. www.cygnus.com.
Actually it's the FSF that would have to take action if these folks
are violating the copyright on any of the GNU tools since the FSF
owns the copyright on GCC, GAS, GDB, etc.

Cygnus would have to take up the issue with cygwin since Cygnus owns
the copyright on cygwin.

I've already sent mail to RMS & our licensing department to have them
contact handspring.com.

To clarify one final issue.  Cygnus does not maintain GCC.

Cygnus provides resources and manpower to GCC and several Cygnus engineers
contribute to gcc.  But the same applies to other companies and individuals.

jeff

Re: Handspring, gcc and ignoring the gpl

[Volker Hetzer]

Jeffrey A Law wrote:
> Actually it's the FSF that would have to take action if these folks
> are violating the copyright on any of the GNU tools since the FSF
> owns the copyright on GCC, GAS, GDB, etc.
I was mentioning you since you probably have a commercial interest in
enforcing the GPL.

> To clarify one final issue.  Cygnus does not maintain GCC.
> 
> Cygnus provides resources and manpower to GCC and several Cygnus engineers
> contribute to gcc.  But the same applies to other companies and individuals.
To clarify the clarification:
What does the phrase "the EGCS steering team ... hosted by Cygnus..." mean?
I found that in the first paragraph of the media alert in http://www.cygnus.com/news/lhost.html .

Greetings!
Volker
-- 
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!

Re: Handspring, gcc, source now available

[Peter W]

Till Harbaum wrote:

> Under http://info.handspring.com/developers_kit.html
> Handspring offers a development kit for their soon to
> come visor pdas. Some of the tools in this package
> are based on gnu tools which all come under the gpl.

The source code is now avaiable on
http://www.handspring.com/developers/developers_kit.asp

Thanks, Handspring !

Re: Handspring, gcc and ignoring the gpl

[Rémi Letot]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 433 bytes --]

Barry Margolin wrote:

> It sounds like they screwed up by not realizing the implications of
> releasing software that was derived from code with incompatible licenses.
By not releasing the source they chose to break the GPL, apparently to
avoid breaking another licence. You are right, the licence may be
incompatible, but that's not an excuse, it's an explanation.

-- 

- Rémi -
Remove ".nospam" for mail copies of the answers

Re: Handspring, gcc and ignoring the gpl

[Tom Whittaker]

Till Harbaum <harbaum@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> wrote in message
news:yksd7uclibg.fsf@flens.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de ...
> "Tom Whittaker" <whittaker@home.com> writes:
<smip>

> I don't expect them to have everything lying around distribution
> ready all time. But they decided to use gpl software (noone enforces
> them to do that and there are excellent commercial palm compilers
> out there) and there is no reason for them not to follow the gpl
> rules.
>

I have to admit, see the GNU letters but not being able to get the source
is unsettling. I hope Handspring does the right thing.

Tom

> Once a company starts breaking the gpl just a little bit, the
> next one will perhaps do it just a little more ...
>
> Ciao,
>   Till

Re: Handspring, gcc and gpl: appearance vs. reality

[Peter W]

Till Harbaum wrote:

> Under http://info.handspring.com/developers_kit.html
> Handspring offers a development kit for their soon to
> come visor pdas. Some of the tools in this package
> are based on gnu tools which all come under the gpl.

Please be more specific. Handspring's SDK is divided in two parts:

1) Cygwin.exe Ver B20.1
2) PalmOSGNUToolsLite.exe REV 1.02

The first sounds like a standard Cygnus win32 SDK. If Handspring
hasn't modified it, then I don't see any big deal in not making source
available on Handspring's site.

The second is the Palm-specific stuff. What GPL'ed code does it use?
Any? Are you certain that Handspring is building on top of GPL'ed code
improperly, or is this just a naming issue, like "CodeWarrior for
Linux, GNU Edition"?

-Peter

Re: Handspring, gcc and ignoring the gpl

[Till Harbaum]

Peter W <peterw@NoJunkMail.usa.net> wrote:

> Please be more specific. Handspring's SDK is divided in two parts:

> 1) Cygwin.exe Ver B20.1
> 2) PalmOSGNUToolsLite.exe REV 1.02

> The first sounds like a standard Cygnus win32 SDK. If Handspring
It obviously is. 
> hasn't modified it, then I don't see any big deal in not making source
> available on Handspring's site.
So why din't they? Did they just not read the gpl? 

> The second is the Palm-specific stuff. What GPL'ed code does it use?
> Any? Are you certain that Handspring is building on top of GPL'ed code
> improperly, or is this just a naming issue, like "CodeWarrior for
> Linux, GNU Edition"?

Uhm, you are kidding, right? First the name: 'GNU tools' has nothing to
do with GPL (GNU public license)? 

And where did you get the information that the tools are based on 
CodeWarrior? The archive i downloaded from handsprings web site 
contains files like 'palm-gcc' and 'palm-gdb'. Unless Codewarrior
was renamed to gcc/gdb, this archive is based to 99% on gpl'd source 
code.

Ciao,
  Till

Re: Handspring, gcc and ignoring the gpl

[Jeffrey A Law]

  In message < 380C35CB.1C2737@abg1.siemens.de >you write:
  > I was mentioning you since you probably have a commercial interest in
  > enforcing the GPL.
Whether or not we have a commercial interest in enforcing the GPL, we have
no legal standing except where we own the copyright (ie cygwin).  Only the
owner of a piece of software can take action to enforce copyrights.

  > What does the phrase "the EGCS steering team ... hosted by Cygnus..." mean?
  > I found that in the first paragraph of the media alert in http://www.cygnus
  > .com/news/lhost.html .
Cygnus provides hardware, network taps and manpower.  ie, we host the project,
but that does not mean Cygnus controls or runs the project.

jeff

Re: Handspring, gcc and ignoring the gpl

[Jeffrey B. Siegal]

Till Harbaum wrote:
> What to do now?

See http://www.fsf.org/copyleft/gpl-violation.html