From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29856 invoked by alias); 13 Jan 2004 00:54:07 -0000 Mailing-List: contact gcc-help@gcc.gnu.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: Sender: gcc-owner@gcc.gnu.org Received: (qmail 29467 invoked from network); 13 Jan 2004 00:54:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail-out3.apple.com) (17.254.13.22) by sources.redhat.com with SMTP; 13 Jan 2004 00:54:05 -0000 Received: from mailgate2.apple.com (a17-128-100-204.apple.com [17.128.100.204]) by mail-out3.apple.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i0D0s5ou005574 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 16:54:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.apple.com (relay1.apple.com) by mailgate2.apple.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.3.6) with ESMTP id ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 16:54:05 -0800 Received: from [17.201.24.57] (polskifiat.apple.com [17.201.24.57]) by relay1.apple.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i0D0s5rY003030; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 00:54:05 GMT In-Reply-To: <200401130140.09367.s.bosscher@student.tudelft.nl> References: <90200277-4301-11D8-BDBD-000A95B1F520@apple.com> <200401130118.27506.s.bosscher@student.tudelft.nl> <200401130140.09367.s.bosscher@student.tudelft.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v609) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <0A2511CD-4563-11D8-B7FE-000393673036@apple.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Geoff Keating , Mark Mitchell , gcc@gcc.gnu.org, Phil Edwards From: Ziemowit Laski Subject: Re: gcc 3.5 integration branch proposal Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 00:54:00 -0000 To: Steven Bosscher X-SW-Source: 2004-01/txt/msg00764.txt.bz2 On 12 Jan, 2004, at 16.40, Steven Bosscher wrote: > On Tuesday 13 January 2004 01:23, Ziemowit Laski wrote: >> On 12 Jan, 2004, at 16.18, Steven Bosscher wrote: >>> On Tuesday 13 January 2004 01:11, Ziemowit Laski wrote: >>>> On 12 Jan, 2004, at 15.49, Mark Mitchell wrote: >>>>> Apple (and some other vendors, including CodeSourcery) is in the >>>>> position of doing its own release management and bug-fixing based >>>>> on >>>>> various versions of GCC. Therefore, having high-quality FSF >>>>> releases >>>>> may not make much of a difference to Apple; Apple doesn't use it >>>>> directly anyhow. >>>> >>>> And the reason we don't is because the FSF keeps shooting down our >>>> patches. >>>> You just can't have it both ways. >>> >>> And Apple keeps ignoring existing infrastructure. I understand the >>> inconvenience for you, but you should _fix_ patches, not force in. >> >> Please explain what you mean by 'infrastucture' and just how evil >> Apple >> is ignoring it. > > Not evil. I never said that. I wish I had an Apple. Ask Pinski, > he knows ;-) > > What I mean is that most patches I've seen so far were shot down on > technical grounds, on bad timing (stage3), for not using existing > functions to perform certain actions (feedback-based prefetching), > apparently patents (?) for hot/cold, etc. > >> Also please explain how to fix patches that were shot >> down _on principle_, such as my recent AltiVec work. > > That's a language issue that I have no opinion on other than that I > think it would have been wise if Motorola had consulted language > lawyers, but that's the past. Others seem to have them. Do you > think branching 3.4 will suddenly make these people change their > mind? The "language lawyer" argument is beside the point. AltiVec is just one of many real-world, platform-specific C/C++ idiosyncracies out there. In my opinion, one of the duties of the RM (currently Mark) is to devise architectural solutions to accommodate such idiosyncracies in the same source base. To the extent that he failed to do this, Apple (and I suspect many others) wound up maintaining their own branches, and obviously have a lesser and lesser incentive to care about the quality of the mainline FSF product (which is where this discussion started). --Zem -------------------------------------------------------------- Ziemowit Laski 1 Infinite Loop, MS 301-2K Mac OS X Compiler Group Cupertino, CA USA 95014-2083 Apple Computer, Inc. +1.408.974.6229 Fax .5477