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From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
To: mark@codesourcery.com
Cc: jbuck@synopsys.COM, gcc@gcc.gnu.org
Subject: Re: type based aliasing again
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 23:25:00 -0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <199909100634.CAA01812@psilocin.gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <19990908184709F.mitchell@codesourcery.com>

    However, I have a rather serious objection: it means that users cannot
    tell whether their code is valid, even according to the GCC rules,
    without knowing the internals of the compiler.

This has always been true.  It is true in the current version of GCC
with regard to aliasing, even when -fstrict-aliasing is used.  It is
part of the nature of C.

The goal of trying to avoid it is unrealistic and misguided; it can't
be done.  So this cannot be a valid reason to reject a change.

    The compiler should continue to aggressively break code that
    misbehaves in this way.

This proposes to break users' code, just to bully them into changing
it.  That is a callous and harsh attitude towards the users of GCC.
No wonder users are angry.  They know that the problems are not due to
necessity, but due to callous disregard for them.

We cannot do everything all users want, and sometimes a maintainer has
to say no to users.  "You cannot please everyone," as the saying goes.
There are many kinds of reasons which can sometimes be good reasons to
say no.

But maintainers should always say no reluctantly--never eagerly.  We
should never aggressively cause trouble for users today, just because
someday it might be necessary.  That is like amputating limbs because
someday they might be crushed.

This treatment of users brings shame on the GNU Project.  I ask
everyone therefore not to suggest that we should treat users this way.

WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID
From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
To: mark@codesourcery.com
Cc: jbuck@synopsys.COM, gcc@gcc.gnu.org
Subject: Re: type based aliasing again
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:02:00 -0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <199909100634.CAA01812@psilocin.gnu.org> (raw)
Message-ID: <19990930180200._gEZK20cMxNwVBteTMF5SXFkcNmgfTh2qMKbEJvMDwc@z> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <19990908184709F.mitchell@codesourcery.com>

    However, I have a rather serious objection: it means that users cannot
    tell whether their code is valid, even according to the GCC rules,
    without knowing the internals of the compiler.

This has always been true.  It is true in the current version of GCC
with regard to aliasing, even when -fstrict-aliasing is used.  It is
part of the nature of C.

The goal of trying to avoid it is unrealistic and misguided; it can't
be done.  So this cannot be a valid reason to reject a change.

    The compiler should continue to aggressively break code that
    misbehaves in this way.

This proposes to break users' code, just to bully them into changing
it.  That is a callous and harsh attitude towards the users of GCC.
No wonder users are angry.  They know that the problems are not due to
necessity, but due to callous disregard for them.

We cannot do everything all users want, and sometimes a maintainer has
to say no to users.  "You cannot please everyone," as the saying goes.
There are many kinds of reasons which can sometimes be good reasons to
say no.

But maintainers should always say no reluctantly--never eagerly.  We
should never aggressively cause trouble for users today, just because
someday it might be necessary.  That is like amputating limbs because
someday they might be crushed.

This treatment of users brings shame on the GNU Project.  I ask
everyone therefore not to suggest that we should treat users this way.

  parent reply	other threads:[~1999-09-09 23:25 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 408+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
1999-09-08 19:13 Mike Stump
1999-09-08 19:31 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09  7:12 ` Marc Espie
1999-09-09 20:35   ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-10 12:29     ` Sudish Joseph
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Sudish Joseph
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Marc Espie
1999-09-09 23:25 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-08 18:11   ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 18:43     ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-08 19:25       ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 19:51         ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02           ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 19:44       ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 20:26         ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-08 20:43           ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 21:45             ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-08 22:04               ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 22:25                 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-09  2:08                 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-09 10:51                   ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 16:51                     ` John Vickers
1999-09-09 17:04                       ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 17:12                         ` John Vickers
1999-09-30 18:02                           ` John Vickers
1999-09-30 18:02                         ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` John Vickers
1999-09-15  2:07                     ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 23:26                   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-09 23:26                   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-09 23:38                     ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-09 23:25                 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-10  0:06                   ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-10  0:13                     ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Joe Buck
1999-09-11  0:17                     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 23:20               ` Richard Henderson
1999-09-08 23:41                 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-08 23:44                   ` Richard Henderson
1999-09-08 23:51                     ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-09  2:45                     ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Richard Henderson
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` Richard Henderson
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 21:33           ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 21:56             ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-09  1:38             ` Martin v. Loewis
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Martin v. Loewis
1999-09-09 23:25             ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09  2:20           ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-09  7:58             ` craig
1999-09-09 10:36               ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 10:55                 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-11  0:15                   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-09 11:51                 ` craig
1999-09-09 12:45                   ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02               ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-09 23:26           ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 23:25       ` Richard Stallman [this message]
1999-09-10  0:03         ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-10  0:23           ` Joe Buck
1999-09-11  0:17             ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Joe Buck
1999-09-11  0:17           ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-10 14:29         ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-15  2:05         ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-15  7:55           ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 23:14           ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-08 20:44     ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Joe Buck
1999-09-14  3:04     ` Alexandre Oliva
1999-09-14  5:34       ` Bernd Schmidt
1999-09-14  5:45         ` Alexandre Oliva
1999-09-14  5:52           ` Bernd Schmidt
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Bernd Schmidt
1999-09-21  1:16           ` Rask Ingemann Lambertsen
1999-09-21  2:02             ` Jamie Lokier
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Jamie Lokier
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Rask Ingemann Lambertsen
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Alexandre Oliva
1999-09-14  9:31         ` Andi Kleen
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Andi Kleen
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Bernd Schmidt
1999-09-14 22:22       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Alexandre Oliva
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Joe Buck
1999-09-10  0:11   ` Joe Buck
1999-09-10  8:43     ` craig
1999-09-10 18:25       ` Jonathan Larmour
1999-09-11  3:50         ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02           ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Jonathan Larmour
1999-09-11  0:15       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-11  3:51         ` craig
1999-09-12  0:51           ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-12  8:54             ` craig
1999-09-13  0:47               ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02               ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02           ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02       ` craig
1999-09-11  0:14     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-11 15:20       ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-11 18:04         ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-11 18:20           ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-11 23:40             ` Sudish Joseph
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Sudish Joseph
1999-09-12  8:16             ` Robert Lipe
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Robert Lipe
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-13  0:47           ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-15  2:06             ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-15  8:02               ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15  9:20                 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-15  9:31                   ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-15 10:02                     ` craig
1999-09-16 23:13                       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-17  1:51                         ` craig
1999-09-17 22:16                           ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                             ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                           ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                         ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-15  9:56                   ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 10:08                     ` craig
1999-09-15 10:48                       ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 14:32                         ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                           ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                         ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-16 10:54                       ` Andi Kleen
1999-09-16 12:08                         ` Joern Rennecke
1999-09-16 12:18                           ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-17  7:07                             ` __typealias qualifier (was Re: type based aliasing again) patl
1999-09-17  8:32                               ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                                 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                               ` Patrick J. LoPresti
1999-09-30 18:02                             ` type based aliasing again Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                           ` Joern Rennecke
1999-09-16 14:29                         ` craig
1999-09-16 22:19                           ` Andi Kleen
1999-09-30 18:02                             ` Andi Kleen
1999-09-30 18:02                           ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                         ` Andi Kleen
1999-09-16 23:13                       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                         ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 23:14               ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02           ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-12  9:45         ` Jonathan Larmour
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Jonathan Larmour
1999-09-13  0:47         ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-13  4:05         ` Richard Earnshaw
1999-09-15  2:05           ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Richard Earnshaw
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mike Stump
1999-09-09 14:26 Mike Stump
1999-09-09 14:38 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-11  0:16   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-15  2:07     ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mike Stump
1999-09-09 15:40 Claus Fischer
1999-09-09 15:57 ` David Starner
1999-09-09 16:24   ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-09 16:55     ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 17:31       ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Joe Buck
1999-09-10  8:42     ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02       ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-30 18:02   ` David Starner
1999-09-09 16:37 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-09 17:15   ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-09 21:54 Alex Rosenberg
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Alex Rosenberg
1999-09-10  8:43 craig
1999-09-12  0:49 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-11 18:21 Phil Edwards
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Phil Edwards
1999-09-11 21:48 N8TM
1999-09-30 18:02 ` N8TM
     [not found] <9377.936981585@upchuck.cygnus.com>
1999-09-12  0:52 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-12 11:20 Josh Stern
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Josh Stern
1999-09-13 10:55 R. Kelley Cook
1999-09-13 13:22 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02   ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` R. Kelley Cook
1999-09-13 16:34 Mike Stump
1999-09-14 22:20 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mike Stump
1999-09-13 21:45 N8TM
1999-09-14  4:01 ` Marc Espie
1999-09-14  9:56   ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 10:10     ` Richard Earnshaw
1999-09-14 10:31       ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-14 10:52         ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 11:11           ` craig
1999-09-14 14:44             ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02               ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 15:06             ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 17:35               ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-14 23:41               ` craig
1999-09-15  8:28                 ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-15  9:19                 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-15  9:59                   ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 15:33                     ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 10:01                   ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02               ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02             ` craig
1999-09-14 11:58           ` Gerald Pfeifer
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Gerald Pfeifer
1999-09-30 18:02           ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 11:01         ` craig
1999-09-14 11:14           ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02             ` craig
1999-09-14 11:39           ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-14 14:48             ` Toon Moene
1999-09-14 15:00               ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 16:01                 ` Toon Moene
1999-09-14 16:15                   ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 16:43                     ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-14 17:39                     ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 16:19                   ` dvv
1999-09-14 17:38                     ` Michael Meissner
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Michael Meissner
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Dima Volodin
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` Toon Moene
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 15:08               ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Toon Moene
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02           ` craig
1999-09-14 23:46         ` Geoff Keating
1999-09-15  7:47           ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Geoff Keating
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Richard Earnshaw
1999-09-14 17:22     ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02     ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 17:23   ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-15  1:59     ` Marc Espie
1999-09-15  8:28       ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Marc Espie
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-15  2:01   ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Marc Espie
1999-09-30 18:02 ` N8TM
1999-09-14  6:46 Marcel Cox
1999-09-14  6:50 ` Bernd Schmidt
1999-09-14  7:14   ` Marcel Cox
1999-09-14  8:45     ` Jamie Lokier
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Jamie Lokier
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Marcel Cox
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Bernd Schmidt
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Marcel Cox
1999-09-15  7:02 David Ronis
1999-09-30 18:02 ` David Ronis
1999-09-15  8:27 Kaveh R. Ghazi
1999-09-15  8:57 ` Nathan Sidwell
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Nathan Sidwell
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Kaveh R. Ghazi
1999-09-15 11:42 Michael J. Bedy
1999-09-15 14:32 ` craig
1999-09-16 23:14   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02   ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Michael J. Bedy
1999-09-15 21:47 Florin Mateoc
1999-09-16  2:18 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02   ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Florin Mateoc
     [not found] <Pine.SO4.4.05.9909160153420.23533-100000@tamarack.cs.mtu.edu>
1999-09-16  2:19 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02   ` craig
1999-09-16  6:12 Artem Hodyush
1999-09-16 23:15 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-16 23:38   ` Gabriel Dos_Reis
1999-09-17 22:16     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Gabriel Dos_Reis
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Artem Hodyush
     [not found] <199909161750.LAA12073@basho.fc.hp.com>
1999-09-16 14:29 ` craig
1999-09-20 15:17   ` John W. Stevens
1999-09-30 18:02     ` John W. Stevens
1999-09-30 18:02   ` craig
1999-09-17  9:02 Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-18  2:51 Ross Morgan-Linial
     [not found] ` <19990918151905.F1650@cerebro.laendle>
1999-09-18 22:18   ` Ross Morgan-Linial
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Ross Morgan-Linial
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Ross Morgan-Linial
1999-09-18  3:25 Artem Hodyush
1999-09-18 11:29 ` Russ Allbery
1999-09-20  5:54   ` Joern Rennecke
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Joern Rennecke
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Russ Allbery
1999-09-19 13:54 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-21  8:50 ` Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Artem Hodyush
1999-09-18  7:30 Stephen L Moshier
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Stephen L Moshier
1999-09-18  8:33 N8TM
1999-09-30 18:02 ` N8TM
1999-09-21  8:48 Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-22 12:15 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-22 13:08   ` Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-24 23:37     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Harvey J. Stein
     [not found] <19990921182843.25292.qmail@deer>
1999-09-21 15:47 ` John W. Stevens
1999-09-21 16:15   ` craig
1999-09-21 20:37     ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02       ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-23  9:06     ` John W. Stevens
1999-09-23 11:06       ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02         ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02       ` John W. Stevens
1999-09-30 18:02     ` craig
1999-09-27  6:56   ` Rask Ingemann Lambertsen
1999-09-27  8:32     ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Rask Ingemann Lambertsen
1999-09-30 18:02   ` John W. Stevens

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