From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
To: mark@codesourcery.com
Cc: jbuck@synopsys.com, gcc@gcc.gnu.org
Subject: Re: type based aliasing again
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 23:26:00 -0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <199909100634.CAA01821@psilocin.gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <19990908202957F.mitchell@codesourcery.com>
Joe> A). If we detect a rule violation, issue a warning and tell
Joe> the compiler to assume aliasing.
Joe> B). If we detect a rule violation, issue a warning and tell
Joe> the compiler to assume no aliasing. (That is, produce bad
Joe> code).
Joe> C). If we detect a rule violation, issue an error and don't
Joe> go on.
Joe> I think that only A) and C) are reasonable. B) is not. I
Joe> would prefer A).
Mark wrote:
There will be cases where A will pessimize code that does not have
undefined behavior. So, in fact, C is impossible, and A penalizes
conforming code. Thus, B is the only remaining sensible option.
This reasoning is based on an assumption about priorities: that
efficiency is far far more important than not breaking users' code.
Those priorities are not well chosen. Efficiency is important because
it makes users happy. Not breaking users' code is important because
it makes users happy.
In general, they are both important. But they are not (in general)
equally important in how they affect any specific issue. To decide
each issue, we have to look at how MUCH efficiency is to be gained and
in which cases, how MANY (and which, and how important) cases will
break, and so on. That way we can estimate how each alternative will
affect the users.
In this specific issue, we can unbreak many programs, with almost no
penalty in efficiency. In this specific issue, unbreaking the
programs wins. In another issue, it might be the other way around.
WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID
From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
To: mark@codesourcery.com
Cc: jbuck@synopsys.com, gcc@gcc.gnu.org
Subject: Re: type based aliasing again
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:02:00 -0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <199909100634.CAA01821@psilocin.gnu.org> (raw)
Message-ID: <19990930180200.OaLwLvZaC-DW07klim1fl9lJCypkB2vyfYINe8Lareg@z> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <19990908202957F.mitchell@codesourcery.com>
Joe> A). If we detect a rule violation, issue a warning and tell
Joe> the compiler to assume aliasing.
Joe> B). If we detect a rule violation, issue a warning and tell
Joe> the compiler to assume no aliasing. (That is, produce bad
Joe> code).
Joe> C). If we detect a rule violation, issue an error and don't
Joe> go on.
Joe> I think that only A) and C) are reasonable. B) is not. I
Joe> would prefer A).
Mark wrote:
There will be cases where A will pessimize code that does not have
undefined behavior. So, in fact, C is impossible, and A penalizes
conforming code. Thus, B is the only remaining sensible option.
This reasoning is based on an assumption about priorities: that
efficiency is far far more important than not breaking users' code.
Those priorities are not well chosen. Efficiency is important because
it makes users happy. Not breaking users' code is important because
it makes users happy.
In general, they are both important. But they are not (in general)
equally important in how they affect any specific issue. To decide
each issue, we have to look at how MUCH efficiency is to be gained and
in which cases, how MANY (and which, and how important) cases will
break, and so on. That way we can estimate how each alternative will
affect the users.
In this specific issue, we can unbreak many programs, with almost no
penalty in efficiency. In this specific issue, unbreaking the
programs wins. In another issue, it might be the other way around.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~1999-09-09 23:26 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 408+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
1999-09-08 19:13 Mike Stump
1999-09-08 19:31 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 7:12 ` Marc Espie
1999-09-09 20:35 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-10 12:29 ` Sudish Joseph
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Sudish Joseph
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Marc Espie
1999-09-09 23:25 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-08 18:11 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 18:43 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-08 19:25 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 19:51 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 19:44 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 20:26 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-08 20:43 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 21:45 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-08 22:04 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 22:25 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-09 2:08 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-09 10:51 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 16:51 ` John Vickers
1999-09-09 17:04 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 17:12 ` John Vickers
1999-09-30 18:02 ` John Vickers
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02 ` John Vickers
1999-09-15 2:07 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 23:26 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-09 23:38 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-09 23:26 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-09 23:25 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-10 0:06 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-10 0:13 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-11 0:17 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 23:20 ` Richard Henderson
1999-09-08 23:41 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-08 23:44 ` Richard Henderson
1999-09-08 23:51 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-09 2:45 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Henderson
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Henderson
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 21:33 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 21:56 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-09 1:38 ` Martin v. Loewis
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Martin v. Loewis
1999-09-09 23:25 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 2:20 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-09 7:58 ` craig
1999-09-09 10:36 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 10:55 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-11 0:15 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-09 11:51 ` craig
1999-09-09 12:45 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-09 23:26 ` Richard Stallman [this message]
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 23:25 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-10 0:03 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-10 0:23 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-11 0:17 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-11 0:17 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-10 14:29 ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-15 2:05 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-15 7:55 ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 23:14 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-08 20:44 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-14 3:04 ` Alexandre Oliva
1999-09-14 5:34 ` Bernd Schmidt
1999-09-14 5:45 ` Alexandre Oliva
1999-09-14 5:52 ` Bernd Schmidt
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Bernd Schmidt
1999-09-21 1:16 ` Rask Ingemann Lambertsen
1999-09-21 2:02 ` Jamie Lokier
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Jamie Lokier
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Rask Ingemann Lambertsen
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Alexandre Oliva
1999-09-14 9:31 ` Andi Kleen
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Andi Kleen
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Bernd Schmidt
1999-09-14 22:22 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Alexandre Oliva
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-10 0:11 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-10 8:43 ` craig
1999-09-10 18:25 ` Jonathan Larmour
1999-09-11 3:50 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Jonathan Larmour
1999-09-11 0:15 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-11 3:51 ` craig
1999-09-12 0:51 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-12 8:54 ` craig
1999-09-13 0:47 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-11 0:14 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-11 15:20 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-11 18:04 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-11 18:20 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-11 23:40 ` Sudish Joseph
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Sudish Joseph
1999-09-12 8:16 ` Robert Lipe
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Robert Lipe
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-13 0:47 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-15 2:06 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-15 8:02 ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 9:20 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-15 9:31 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-15 10:02 ` craig
1999-09-16 23:13 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-17 1:51 ` craig
1999-09-17 22:16 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-15 9:56 ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 10:08 ` craig
1999-09-15 10:48 ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 14:32 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-16 10:54 ` Andi Kleen
1999-09-16 12:08 ` Joern Rennecke
1999-09-16 12:18 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-17 7:07 ` __typealias qualifier (was Re: type based aliasing again) patl
1999-09-17 8:32 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Patrick J. LoPresti
1999-09-30 18:02 ` type based aliasing again Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Joern Rennecke
1999-09-16 14:29 ` craig
1999-09-16 22:19 ` Andi Kleen
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Andi Kleen
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Andi Kleen
1999-09-16 23:13 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 23:14 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-12 9:45 ` Jonathan Larmour
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Jonathan Larmour
1999-09-13 0:47 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-13 4:05 ` Richard Earnshaw
1999-09-15 2:05 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Earnshaw
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mike Stump
1999-09-09 14:26 Mike Stump
1999-09-09 14:38 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-11 0:16 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-15 2:07 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mike Stump
1999-09-09 15:40 Claus Fischer
1999-09-09 15:57 ` David Starner
1999-09-09 16:24 ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-09 16:55 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 17:31 ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-10 8:42 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-30 18:02 ` David Starner
1999-09-09 16:37 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-09 17:15 ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-09 21:54 Alex Rosenberg
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Alex Rosenberg
1999-09-10 8:43 craig
1999-09-12 0:49 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-11 18:21 Phil Edwards
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Phil Edwards
1999-09-11 21:48 N8TM
1999-09-30 18:02 ` N8TM
[not found] <9377.936981585@upchuck.cygnus.com>
1999-09-12 0:52 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-12 11:20 Josh Stern
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Josh Stern
1999-09-13 10:55 R. Kelley Cook
1999-09-13 13:22 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` R. Kelley Cook
1999-09-13 16:34 Mike Stump
1999-09-14 22:20 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mike Stump
1999-09-13 21:45 N8TM
1999-09-14 4:01 ` Marc Espie
1999-09-14 9:56 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 10:10 ` Richard Earnshaw
1999-09-14 10:31 ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-14 10:52 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 11:11 ` craig
1999-09-14 14:44 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 15:06 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 17:35 ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-14 23:41 ` craig
1999-09-15 8:28 ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-15 9:19 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-15 9:59 ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 15:33 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 10:01 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-14 11:58 ` Gerald Pfeifer
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Gerald Pfeifer
1999-09-30 18:02 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 11:01 ` craig
1999-09-14 11:14 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-14 11:39 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-14 14:48 ` Toon Moene
1999-09-14 15:00 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 16:01 ` Toon Moene
1999-09-14 16:15 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 16:43 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-14 17:39 ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 16:19 ` dvv
1999-09-14 17:38 ` Michael Meissner
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Michael Meissner
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Dima Volodin
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Toon Moene
1999-09-30 18:02 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 15:08 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Toon Moene
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-14 23:46 ` Geoff Keating
1999-09-15 7:47 ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Geoff Keating
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Earnshaw
1999-09-14 17:22 ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 17:23 ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-15 1:59 ` Marc Espie
1999-09-15 8:28 ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Marc Espie
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-15 2:01 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Marc Espie
1999-09-30 18:02 ` N8TM
1999-09-14 6:46 Marcel Cox
1999-09-14 6:50 ` Bernd Schmidt
1999-09-14 7:14 ` Marcel Cox
1999-09-14 8:45 ` Jamie Lokier
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Jamie Lokier
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Marcel Cox
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Bernd Schmidt
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Marcel Cox
1999-09-15 7:02 David Ronis
1999-09-30 18:02 ` David Ronis
1999-09-15 8:27 Kaveh R. Ghazi
1999-09-15 8:57 ` Nathan Sidwell
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Nathan Sidwell
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Kaveh R. Ghazi
1999-09-15 11:42 Michael J. Bedy
1999-09-15 14:32 ` craig
1999-09-16 23:14 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Michael J. Bedy
1999-09-15 21:47 Florin Mateoc
1999-09-16 2:18 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Florin Mateoc
[not found] <Pine.SO4.4.05.9909160153420.23533-100000@tamarack.cs.mtu.edu>
1999-09-16 2:19 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-16 6:12 Artem Hodyush
1999-09-16 23:15 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-16 23:38 ` Gabriel Dos_Reis
1999-09-17 22:16 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Gabriel Dos_Reis
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Artem Hodyush
[not found] <199909161750.LAA12073@basho.fc.hp.com>
1999-09-16 14:29 ` craig
1999-09-20 15:17 ` John W. Stevens
1999-09-30 18:02 ` John W. Stevens
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-17 9:02 Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-18 2:51 Ross Morgan-Linial
[not found] ` <19990918151905.F1650@cerebro.laendle>
1999-09-18 22:18 ` Ross Morgan-Linial
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Ross Morgan-Linial
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Ross Morgan-Linial
1999-09-18 3:25 Artem Hodyush
1999-09-18 11:29 ` Russ Allbery
1999-09-20 5:54 ` Joern Rennecke
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Joern Rennecke
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Russ Allbery
1999-09-19 13:54 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-21 8:50 ` Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Artem Hodyush
1999-09-18 7:30 Stephen L Moshier
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Stephen L Moshier
1999-09-18 8:33 N8TM
1999-09-30 18:02 ` N8TM
1999-09-21 8:48 Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-22 12:15 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-22 13:08 ` Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-24 23:37 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Harvey J. Stein
[not found] <19990921182843.25292.qmail@deer>
1999-09-21 15:47 ` John W. Stevens
1999-09-21 16:15 ` craig
1999-09-21 20:37 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-23 9:06 ` John W. Stevens
1999-09-23 11:06 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` John W. Stevens
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-27 6:56 ` Rask Ingemann Lambertsen
1999-09-27 8:32 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Rask Ingemann Lambertsen
1999-09-30 18:02 ` John W. Stevens
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