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From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
To: jbuck@synopsys.com
Cc: mrs@wrs.com, gcc@gcc.gnu.org, jbuck@synopsys.com
Subject: Re: type based aliasing again
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 00:14:00 -0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <199909110724.DAA03071@psilocin.gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <199909100708.AAA00030@atrus.synopsys.com>

    While I have some sympathy for that point of view, the reason that
    the type aliasing rules were added was to give scientific programmers
    what they were asking for: C that runs about as fast as Fortran.

We should certainly make of these rules to generate faster code.  But
while we do this, we can still look for ways to keep old code working
right--when we find ways to do this with little pain and little cost.

    I don't want to break users' code when we can TELL what they mean,
    and many examples seem to fall into that category.  But where we
    can't tell, we have to either exploit the ISO rules (e.g. -fstrict-alias)
    or not (-fno-strict-alias).

When we can't easily tell "what was meant", I think we should take
advantage of the ISO rules, and carry out the optimizations that are
possible.

    In the end, if your argument is carried too far, the only solution
    would be to make -fno-strict-alias the default.

The whole point of this idea is that we don't try to carry the idea
too far--just a certain amount.  What we need here is moderation; we
need to find the balance between the various goals that matter to the
users.

WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID
From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
To: jbuck@synopsys.com
Cc: mrs@wrs.com, gcc@gcc.gnu.org, jbuck@synopsys.com
Subject: Re: type based aliasing again
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:02:00 -0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <199909110724.DAA03071@psilocin.gnu.org> (raw)
Message-ID: <19990930180200._pexjEiA3MgYrie9qAIxwD3cl5-TZOG_DArBswlfkdE@z> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <199909100708.AAA00030@atrus.synopsys.com>

    While I have some sympathy for that point of view, the reason that
    the type aliasing rules were added was to give scientific programmers
    what they were asking for: C that runs about as fast as Fortran.

We should certainly make of these rules to generate faster code.  But
while we do this, we can still look for ways to keep old code working
right--when we find ways to do this with little pain and little cost.

    I don't want to break users' code when we can TELL what they mean,
    and many examples seem to fall into that category.  But where we
    can't tell, we have to either exploit the ISO rules (e.g. -fstrict-alias)
    or not (-fno-strict-alias).

When we can't easily tell "what was meant", I think we should take
advantage of the ISO rules, and carry out the optimizations that are
possible.

    In the end, if your argument is carried too far, the only solution
    would be to make -fno-strict-alias the default.

The whole point of this idea is that we don't try to carry the idea
too far--just a certain amount.  What we need here is moderation; we
need to find the balance between the various goals that matter to the
users.

  parent reply	other threads:[~1999-09-11  0:14 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 408+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
1999-09-08 19:13 Mike Stump
1999-09-08 19:31 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09  7:12 ` Marc Espie
1999-09-09 20:35   ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-10 12:29     ` Sudish Joseph
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Sudish Joseph
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Marc Espie
1999-09-09 23:25 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-08 18:11   ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 18:43     ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-08 19:25       ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 19:51         ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02           ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 19:44       ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 20:26         ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-08 20:43           ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 21:45             ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-08 22:04               ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 22:25                 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-09  2:08                 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-09 10:51                   ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 16:51                     ` John Vickers
1999-09-09 17:04                       ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 17:12                         ` John Vickers
1999-09-30 18:02                           ` John Vickers
1999-09-30 18:02                         ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` John Vickers
1999-09-15  2:07                     ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 23:26                   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-09 23:38                     ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-09 23:26                   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-09 23:25                 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-10  0:06                   ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-10  0:13                     ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Joe Buck
1999-09-11  0:17                     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 23:20               ` Richard Henderson
1999-09-08 23:41                 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-08 23:44                   ` Richard Henderson
1999-09-08 23:51                     ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-09  2:45                     ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Richard Henderson
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` Richard Henderson
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 21:33           ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 21:56             ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-09  1:38             ` Martin v. Loewis
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Martin v. Loewis
1999-09-09 23:25             ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09  2:20           ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-09  7:58             ` craig
1999-09-09 10:36               ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 10:55                 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-11  0:15                   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-09 11:51                 ` craig
1999-09-09 12:45                   ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02               ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-09 23:26           ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 23:25       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-10  0:03         ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-10  0:23           ` Joe Buck
1999-09-11  0:17             ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Joe Buck
1999-09-11  0:17           ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-10 14:29         ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-15  2:05         ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-15  7:55           ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 23:14           ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-08 20:44     ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Joe Buck
1999-09-14  3:04     ` Alexandre Oliva
1999-09-14  5:34       ` Bernd Schmidt
1999-09-14  5:45         ` Alexandre Oliva
1999-09-14  5:52           ` Bernd Schmidt
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Bernd Schmidt
1999-09-21  1:16           ` Rask Ingemann Lambertsen
1999-09-21  2:02             ` Jamie Lokier
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Jamie Lokier
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Rask Ingemann Lambertsen
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Alexandre Oliva
1999-09-14  9:31         ` Andi Kleen
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Andi Kleen
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Bernd Schmidt
1999-09-14 22:22       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Alexandre Oliva
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Joe Buck
1999-09-10  0:11   ` Joe Buck
1999-09-10  8:43     ` craig
1999-09-10 18:25       ` Jonathan Larmour
1999-09-11  3:50         ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02           ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Jonathan Larmour
1999-09-11  0:15       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-11  3:51         ` craig
1999-09-12  0:51           ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-12  8:54             ` craig
1999-09-13  0:47               ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02               ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02           ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02       ` craig
1999-09-11  0:14     ` Richard Stallman [this message]
1999-09-11 15:20       ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-11 18:04         ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-11 18:20           ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-11 23:40             ` Sudish Joseph
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Sudish Joseph
1999-09-12  8:16             ` Robert Lipe
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Robert Lipe
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-13  0:47           ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-15  2:06             ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-15  8:02               ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15  9:20                 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-15  9:31                   ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-15 10:02                     ` craig
1999-09-16 23:13                       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-17  1:51                         ` craig
1999-09-17 22:16                           ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                             ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                           ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                         ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-15  9:56                   ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 10:08                     ` craig
1999-09-15 10:48                       ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 14:32                         ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                           ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                         ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-16 10:54                       ` Andi Kleen
1999-09-16 12:08                         ` Joern Rennecke
1999-09-16 12:18                           ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-17  7:07                             ` __typealias qualifier (was Re: type based aliasing again) patl
1999-09-17  8:32                               ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                                 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                               ` Patrick J. LoPresti
1999-09-30 18:02                             ` type based aliasing again Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                           ` Joern Rennecke
1999-09-16 14:29                         ` craig
1999-09-16 22:19                           ` Andi Kleen
1999-09-30 18:02                             ` Andi Kleen
1999-09-30 18:02                           ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                         ` Andi Kleen
1999-09-16 23:13                       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                         ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 23:14               ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02           ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-12  9:45         ` Jonathan Larmour
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Jonathan Larmour
1999-09-13  0:47         ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-13  4:05         ` Richard Earnshaw
1999-09-15  2:05           ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Richard Earnshaw
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mike Stump
1999-09-09 14:26 Mike Stump
1999-09-09 14:38 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-11  0:16   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-15  2:07     ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mike Stump
1999-09-09 15:40 Claus Fischer
1999-09-09 15:57 ` David Starner
1999-09-09 16:24   ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-09 16:55     ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 17:31       ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Joe Buck
1999-09-10  8:42     ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02       ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-30 18:02   ` David Starner
1999-09-09 16:37 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-09 17:15   ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-09 21:54 Alex Rosenberg
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Alex Rosenberg
1999-09-10  8:43 craig
1999-09-12  0:49 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-11 18:21 Phil Edwards
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Phil Edwards
1999-09-11 21:48 N8TM
1999-09-30 18:02 ` N8TM
     [not found] <9377.936981585@upchuck.cygnus.com>
1999-09-12  0:52 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-12 11:20 Josh Stern
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Josh Stern
1999-09-13 10:55 R. Kelley Cook
1999-09-13 13:22 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02   ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` R. Kelley Cook
1999-09-13 16:34 Mike Stump
1999-09-14 22:20 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mike Stump
1999-09-13 21:45 N8TM
1999-09-14  4:01 ` Marc Espie
1999-09-14  9:56   ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 10:10     ` Richard Earnshaw
1999-09-14 10:31       ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-14 10:52         ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 11:11           ` craig
1999-09-14 14:44             ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02               ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 15:06             ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 17:35               ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-14 23:41               ` craig
1999-09-15  8:28                 ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-15  9:19                 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-15  9:59                   ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 15:33                     ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 10:01                   ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02               ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02             ` craig
1999-09-14 11:58           ` Gerald Pfeifer
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Gerald Pfeifer
1999-09-30 18:02           ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 11:01         ` craig
1999-09-14 11:14           ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02             ` craig
1999-09-14 11:39           ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-14 14:48             ` Toon Moene
1999-09-14 15:00               ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 16:01                 ` Toon Moene
1999-09-14 16:15                   ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 16:43                     ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-14 17:39                     ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 16:19                   ` dvv
1999-09-14 17:38                     ` Michael Meissner
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Michael Meissner
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Dima Volodin
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` Toon Moene
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 15:08               ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Toon Moene
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02           ` craig
1999-09-14 23:46         ` Geoff Keating
1999-09-15  7:47           ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Geoff Keating
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Richard Earnshaw
1999-09-14 17:22     ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02     ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 17:23   ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-15  1:59     ` Marc Espie
1999-09-15  8:28       ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Marc Espie
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-15  2:01   ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Marc Espie
1999-09-30 18:02 ` N8TM
1999-09-14  6:46 Marcel Cox
1999-09-14  6:50 ` Bernd Schmidt
1999-09-14  7:14   ` Marcel Cox
1999-09-14  8:45     ` Jamie Lokier
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Jamie Lokier
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Marcel Cox
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Bernd Schmidt
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Marcel Cox
1999-09-15  7:02 David Ronis
1999-09-30 18:02 ` David Ronis
1999-09-15  8:27 Kaveh R. Ghazi
1999-09-15  8:57 ` Nathan Sidwell
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Nathan Sidwell
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Kaveh R. Ghazi
1999-09-15 11:42 Michael J. Bedy
1999-09-15 14:32 ` craig
1999-09-16 23:14   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02   ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Michael J. Bedy
1999-09-15 21:47 Florin Mateoc
1999-09-16  2:18 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02   ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Florin Mateoc
     [not found] <Pine.SO4.4.05.9909160153420.23533-100000@tamarack.cs.mtu.edu>
1999-09-16  2:19 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02   ` craig
1999-09-16  6:12 Artem Hodyush
1999-09-16 23:15 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-16 23:38   ` Gabriel Dos_Reis
1999-09-17 22:16     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Gabriel Dos_Reis
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Artem Hodyush
     [not found] <199909161750.LAA12073@basho.fc.hp.com>
1999-09-16 14:29 ` craig
1999-09-20 15:17   ` John W. Stevens
1999-09-30 18:02     ` John W. Stevens
1999-09-30 18:02   ` craig
1999-09-17  9:02 Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-18  2:51 Ross Morgan-Linial
     [not found] ` <19990918151905.F1650@cerebro.laendle>
1999-09-18 22:18   ` Ross Morgan-Linial
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Ross Morgan-Linial
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Ross Morgan-Linial
1999-09-18  3:25 Artem Hodyush
1999-09-18 11:29 ` Russ Allbery
1999-09-20  5:54   ` Joern Rennecke
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Joern Rennecke
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Russ Allbery
1999-09-19 13:54 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-21  8:50 ` Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Artem Hodyush
1999-09-18  7:30 Stephen L Moshier
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Stephen L Moshier
1999-09-18  8:33 N8TM
1999-09-30 18:02 ` N8TM
1999-09-21  8:48 Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-22 12:15 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-22 13:08   ` Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-24 23:37     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Harvey J. Stein
     [not found] <19990921182843.25292.qmail@deer>
1999-09-21 15:47 ` John W. Stevens
1999-09-21 16:15   ` craig
1999-09-21 20:37     ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02       ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-23  9:06     ` John W. Stevens
1999-09-23 11:06       ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02         ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02       ` John W. Stevens
1999-09-30 18:02     ` craig
1999-09-27  6:56   ` Rask Ingemann Lambertsen
1999-09-27  8:32     ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Rask Ingemann Lambertsen
1999-09-30 18:02   ` John W. Stevens

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