public inbox for gcc@gcc.gnu.org
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: craig@jcb-sc.com
To: claus.fischer@intel.com
Cc: craig@jcb-sc.com
Subject: Re: type based aliasing again
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:02:00 -0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <19990910153058.9163.qmail@deer> (raw)
Message-ID: <19990930180200.XXrJuHR_WpFskXojVbBQjrw6xQkqovW4uc-h0N3bR7w@z> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9909091557120.28913-100000@tcadi02.sc.intel.com>

>The problem is that the anti-aliasing rules are an especially
>difficult and tricky part of the standard. If we demand that
>users know these rules that's akin to mandating having a copy of
>the standard. While helping people to learn is good, this is more
>like imposing difficulties on those that don't want to know.

There are two dominant solutions: 1) Change the standard; 2) Don't
program in C.  *Way* less appropriate than those is 3) Invent dialectal
behaviors and implement them to work around what programmers are
already supposed to know, which is what is being proposed here --
especially when those dialectal behaviors are triggered without the
use of *any* constructs that are clearly syntactically *invalid*
in the standard language.

In short, if people "don't want to know", they shouldn't be let
near a C compiler.  Remember all those pundits who claimed C was
inferior, for regular programmers, to some languages like FORTRAN 77,
because it imposed pointers on them?  This is where you're all supposed
to say "hey, they were right, these pointer thangs are *darn* complicated".

(My off-the-cuff opinion?  C programmers can't handle pointers *combined*
with Fortran-style aliasing prohibitions.  ISO C should have just
mandated straight-ahead, nearly-Java-like behavior for code, and
left optimization to the under-the-hood people.  I'm saying I actually
favor option #1 above.  If we leave things as they are in GCC, we
actually *promote* such a change better than if we cleverly try
to "accommodate" via option 3, and probably even better than if we
emit a nice warning.)

        tq vm, (burley)

  parent reply	other threads:[~1999-09-30 18:02 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 404+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
1999-09-09 15:40 Claus Fischer
1999-09-09 15:57 ` David Starner
1999-09-09 16:24   ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-09 16:55     ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 17:31       ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Joe Buck
1999-09-10  8:42     ` craig [this message]
1999-09-30 18:02       ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-30 18:02   ` David Starner
1999-09-09 16:37 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-09 17:15   ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Claus Fischer
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Claus Fischer
     [not found] <19990921182843.25292.qmail@deer>
1999-09-21 15:47 ` John W. Stevens
1999-09-21 16:15   ` craig
1999-09-21 20:37     ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02       ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-23  9:06     ` John W. Stevens
1999-09-23 11:06       ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02         ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02       ` John W. Stevens
1999-09-30 18:02     ` craig
1999-09-27  6:56   ` Rask Ingemann Lambertsen
1999-09-27  8:32     ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Rask Ingemann Lambertsen
1999-09-30 18:02   ` John W. Stevens
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
1999-09-21  8:48 Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-22 12:15 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-22 13:08   ` Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-24 23:37     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-18  8:33 N8TM
1999-09-30 18:02 ` N8TM
1999-09-18  7:30 Stephen L Moshier
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Stephen L Moshier
1999-09-18  3:25 Artem Hodyush
1999-09-18 11:29 ` Russ Allbery
1999-09-20  5:54   ` Joern Rennecke
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Joern Rennecke
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Russ Allbery
1999-09-19 13:54 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-21  8:50 ` Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Artem Hodyush
1999-09-18  2:51 Ross Morgan-Linial
     [not found] ` <19990918151905.F1650@cerebro.laendle>
1999-09-18 22:18   ` Ross Morgan-Linial
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Ross Morgan-Linial
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Ross Morgan-Linial
1999-09-17  9:02 Harvey J. Stein
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Harvey J. Stein
     [not found] <199909161750.LAA12073@basho.fc.hp.com>
1999-09-16 14:29 ` craig
1999-09-20 15:17   ` John W. Stevens
1999-09-30 18:02     ` John W. Stevens
1999-09-30 18:02   ` craig
1999-09-16  6:12 Artem Hodyush
1999-09-16 23:15 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-16 23:38   ` Gabriel Dos_Reis
1999-09-17 22:16     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Gabriel Dos_Reis
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Artem Hodyush
     [not found] <Pine.SO4.4.05.9909160153420.23533-100000@tamarack.cs.mtu.edu>
1999-09-16  2:19 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02   ` craig
1999-09-15 21:47 Florin Mateoc
1999-09-16  2:18 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02   ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Florin Mateoc
1999-09-15 11:42 Michael J. Bedy
1999-09-15 14:32 ` craig
1999-09-16 23:14   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02   ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Michael J. Bedy
1999-09-15  8:27 Kaveh R. Ghazi
1999-09-15  8:57 ` Nathan Sidwell
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Nathan Sidwell
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Kaveh R. Ghazi
1999-09-15  7:02 David Ronis
1999-09-30 18:02 ` David Ronis
1999-09-14  6:46 Marcel Cox
1999-09-14  6:50 ` Bernd Schmidt
1999-09-14  7:14   ` Marcel Cox
1999-09-14  8:45     ` Jamie Lokier
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Jamie Lokier
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Marcel Cox
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Bernd Schmidt
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Marcel Cox
1999-09-13 21:45 N8TM
1999-09-14  4:01 ` Marc Espie
1999-09-14  9:56   ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 10:10     ` Richard Earnshaw
1999-09-14 10:31       ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-14 10:52         ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 11:11           ` craig
1999-09-14 14:44             ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02               ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 15:06             ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 17:35               ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-14 23:41               ` craig
1999-09-15  8:28                 ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-15  9:19                 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-15  9:59                   ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 15:33                     ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 10:01                   ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02               ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02             ` craig
1999-09-14 11:58           ` Gerald Pfeifer
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Gerald Pfeifer
1999-09-30 18:02           ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 11:01         ` craig
1999-09-14 11:14           ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02             ` craig
1999-09-14 11:39           ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-14 14:48             ` Toon Moene
1999-09-14 15:00               ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 16:01                 ` Toon Moene
1999-09-14 16:15                   ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 16:43                     ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-14 17:39                     ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 16:19                   ` dvv
1999-09-14 17:38                     ` Michael Meissner
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Michael Meissner
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Dima Volodin
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` Toon Moene
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 15:08               ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Toon Moene
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02           ` craig
1999-09-14 23:46         ` Geoff Keating
1999-09-15  7:47           ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Geoff Keating
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Richard Earnshaw
1999-09-14 17:22     ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02     ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-14 17:23   ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-15  1:59     ` Marc Espie
1999-09-15  8:28       ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Marc Espie
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-15  2:01   ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Marc Espie
1999-09-30 18:02 ` N8TM
1999-09-13 16:34 Mike Stump
1999-09-14 22:20 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mike Stump
1999-09-13 10:55 R. Kelley Cook
1999-09-13 13:22 ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02   ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02 ` R. Kelley Cook
1999-09-12 11:20 Josh Stern
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Josh Stern
     [not found] <9377.936981585@upchuck.cygnus.com>
1999-09-12  0:52 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-11 21:48 N8TM
1999-09-30 18:02 ` N8TM
1999-09-11 18:21 Phil Edwards
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Phil Edwards
1999-09-10  8:43 craig
1999-09-12  0:49 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` craig
1999-09-09 21:54 Alex Rosenberg
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Alex Rosenberg
1999-09-09 14:26 Mike Stump
1999-09-09 14:38 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-11  0:16   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-15  2:07     ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mike Stump
1999-09-08 19:13 Mike Stump
1999-09-08 19:31 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09  7:12 ` Marc Espie
1999-09-09 20:35   ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-10 12:29     ` Sudish Joseph
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Sudish Joseph
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Marc Espie
1999-09-09 23:25 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-08 18:11   ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 18:43     ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-08 19:25       ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 19:51         ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02           ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 19:44       ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 20:26         ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-08 20:43           ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 21:45             ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-08 22:04               ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 22:25                 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-09  2:08                 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-09 10:51                   ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 16:51                     ` John Vickers
1999-09-09 17:04                       ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 17:12                         ` John Vickers
1999-09-30 18:02                           ` John Vickers
1999-09-30 18:02                         ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` John Vickers
1999-09-15  2:07                     ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 23:26                   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-09 23:38                     ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-09 23:26                   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-09 23:25                 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-10  0:06                   ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-10  0:13                     ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Joe Buck
1999-09-11  0:17                     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 23:20               ` Richard Henderson
1999-09-08 23:41                 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-08 23:44                   ` Richard Henderson
1999-09-08 23:51                     ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-09  2:45                     ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Richard Henderson
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` Richard Henderson
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 21:33           ` Joe Buck
1999-09-08 21:56             ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-09  1:38             ` Martin v. Loewis
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Martin v. Loewis
1999-09-09 23:25             ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09  2:20           ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-09  7:58             ` craig
1999-09-09 10:36               ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 10:55                 ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-11  0:15                   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-09 11:51                 ` craig
1999-09-09 12:45                   ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02               ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-09 23:26           ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Joe Buck
1999-09-09 23:25       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-10  0:03         ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-10  0:23           ` Joe Buck
1999-09-11  0:17             ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Joe Buck
1999-09-11  0:17           ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-10 14:29         ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Marc Lehmann
1999-09-15  2:05         ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-15  7:55           ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 23:14           ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-08 20:44     ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Joe Buck
1999-09-14  3:04     ` Alexandre Oliva
1999-09-14  5:34       ` Bernd Schmidt
1999-09-14  5:45         ` Alexandre Oliva
1999-09-14  5:52           ` Bernd Schmidt
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Bernd Schmidt
1999-09-21  1:16           ` Rask Ingemann Lambertsen
1999-09-21  2:02             ` Jamie Lokier
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Jamie Lokier
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Rask Ingemann Lambertsen
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Alexandre Oliva
1999-09-14  9:31         ` Andi Kleen
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Andi Kleen
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Bernd Schmidt
1999-09-14 22:22       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Alexandre Oliva
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Joe Buck
1999-09-10  0:11   ` Joe Buck
1999-09-10  8:43     ` craig
1999-09-10 18:25       ` Jonathan Larmour
1999-09-11  3:50         ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02           ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Jonathan Larmour
1999-09-11  0:15       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-11  3:51         ` craig
1999-09-12  0:51           ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-12  8:54             ` craig
1999-09-13  0:47               ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02               ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02           ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02       ` craig
1999-09-11  0:14     ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-11 15:20       ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-11 18:04         ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-11 18:20           ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-11 23:40             ` Sudish Joseph
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Sudish Joseph
1999-09-12  8:16             ` Robert Lipe
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Robert Lipe
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-13  0:47           ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-15  2:06             ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-15  8:02               ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15  9:20                 ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-15  9:31                   ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-15 10:02                     ` craig
1999-09-16 23:13                       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-17  1:51                         ` craig
1999-09-17 22:16                           ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                             ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                           ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                         ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-15  9:56                   ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 10:08                     ` craig
1999-09-15 10:48                       ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 14:32                         ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                           ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                         ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-16 10:54                       ` Andi Kleen
1999-09-16 12:08                         ` Joern Rennecke
1999-09-16 12:18                           ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                             ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02                           ` Joern Rennecke
1999-09-16 14:29                         ` craig
1999-09-16 22:19                           ` Andi Kleen
1999-09-30 18:02                             ` Andi Kleen
1999-09-30 18:02                           ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                         ` Andi Kleen
1999-09-16 23:13                       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                         ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                       ` craig
1999-09-30 18:02                     ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-30 18:02                   ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` Nick Ing-Simmons
1999-09-15 23:14               ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02                 ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02               ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02           ` David Edelsohn
1999-09-12  9:45         ` Jonathan Larmour
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Jonathan Larmour
1999-09-13  0:47         ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-13  4:05         ` Richard Earnshaw
1999-09-15  2:05           ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02             ` Jeffrey A Law
1999-09-30 18:02           ` Richard Earnshaw
1999-09-30 18:02         ` Mark Mitchell
1999-09-30 18:02       ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02     ` Joe Buck
1999-09-30 18:02   ` Richard Stallman
1999-09-30 18:02 ` Mike Stump

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=19990910153058.9163.qmail@deer \
    --to=craig@jcb-sc.com \
    --cc=claus.fischer@intel.com \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for read-only IMAP folder(s) and NNTP newsgroup(s).