From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pf1-x433.google.com (mail-pf1-x433.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::433]) by sourceware.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 15ECB385E02F for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2021 17:09:38 +0000 (GMT) DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 sourceware.org 15ECB385E02F Received: by mail-pf1-x433.google.com with SMTP id n38so14190352pfv.2 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2021 10:09:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=kvP3rfYNqrl5nym1ks3wl4ndMGhHDACravQKMj1zerU=; b=f6Jl5fhsx92HPzgsWKoxf+w4yJdbBFAkZvc6CrX/vyI34jbXavsN+1KtHNifFLpB9i +UD9ZPq9VEww/C9cB4GSPZyqYNmCFnIJg7xhFu6pf4VaXbjxAMpFp+jW8Rnj2/B23Ftq 1YpPcAfiQDSgO4063UPapMmcvu5px/JRvt7qFjIWUWFhfqANPg48W+NzscdrKNG5gQ1p saEJK8YuMMWVTZ4wwpVeMl8l7IU4T0gumb7kUNkxSCBn6sd7fNzxWd/tWFxWfomDrxL0 i56gD58BzcHoU+wFcgSdmNRP0/OyyrqPA6hfIEbLo8tI8p2s30wqQzKUocEAooqHSdYo KYhw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533AplTeROKImYnB0AqGx2X6oItFb3kfUZA2KocTFHQhoTQUgXUH SnOz80WcMvltdSy8AgNzY0eedcVElXWqXg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy3QY9EiD153G67InJCUfQ1PwpuqPtto3Y5xmvF4nzSDLcSqIWi9nYmZhQdDR+xlsUrZUw0hQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:228a:b029:24d:f834:7474 with SMTP id f10-20020a056a00228ab029024df8347474mr13891482pfe.81.1618420176903; Wed, 14 Apr 2021 10:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.29] (65-130-82-141.slkc.qwest.net. [65.130.82.141]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c21sm118991pgl.71.2021.04.14.10.09.36 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 14 Apr 2021 10:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: removing toxic emailers To: Jonathan Wakely , Thomas Koenig Cc: "gcc@gcc.gnu.org" References: <20210414131843.GA4138043@thyrsus.com> <7e126821-f66c-869a-a7bc-6c19a3c1f017@netcologne.de> From: Jeff Law Message-ID: <1c30db77-49a2-5f96-c97a-318e433a43cc@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 11:09:35 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00, DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, DKIM_VALID_EF, FREEMAIL_FROM, NICE_REPLY_A, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_PASS, TXREP autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on server2.sourceware.org X-BeenThere: gcc@gcc.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Gcc mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 17:09:40 -0000 On 4/14/2021 8:49 AM, Jonathan Wakely via Gcc wrote: > On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 at 15:39, Thomas Koenig wrote: >> On 14.04.21 15:18, Eric S. Raymond wrote: >>> A strong norm about off-list behavior and politics being >>> out of bounds here is also helpful. >> That would have banned the whole discussion about the potential >> fork from the start. > No, because once again, I raised the topic of a fork because I do not > feel that association with GNU or FSF benefits the GCC project. I did > not say "we have to cancel them because I don't like their politics" > (as it happens, I do like their politics, which is why I've spent two > decades writing copyleft code for GCC, I just think they have failed > to evolve and are sadly irrelevant today). [ Speaking for myself, not the steering committee or my employer... ] Well said (and I'm not being sarcastic).  While my politics may not line up 100% with those of the FSF, GNU project or RMS, they have been close enough for me to spend 30+ years of my life working on GNU tools.  I agree with you Jon that the organizations and RMS personally have failed to evolve -- and I'll go a step further than you did in this message and state that, IMHO, they are actively harmful to GCC and the free software movement in general. I don't relish the idea of forking GCC again.  Been there, done that, it was painful.  But again, I think we're at a point where it's necessary again. Jeff