* Re: Why not gnat Ada in gcc? @ 2000-10-01 8:35 Robert Dewar 2000-10-10 20:04 ` Jeffrey A Law 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-10-01 8:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: dewar, guerby; +Cc: gcc Laurent Guerby asks <<I don't know if ACT has debated the issue, but assuming the GNAT sources end up in the GCC CVS repository what will be the updating policy between the ACT tree and the public GCC one? One massive update from ACT per public GNAT version? Minor updates when GCC backend interface changes are made that break the compilation of the Ada frontend? Or more frequent updates? >> Certainly new releases of GNAT always have major additions, which will result in a fairly massive update to the tree (as has happened with other GNU tools when major updates are made). We will also provide minor updates and patches as we go along to correct significant problems or deal with interface changes. <<If some people want to develop non trivial patches to GNU Ada (affecting multiple files), how should they proceed (I assume by first contacting ACT, but then)? >> These patches should be submitted to someone with write access to the tree in the usual manner. Ada Core Technologies will of course follow any such patches, and incorporate them where appropriate (or correct them where this is needed). <<PS: I promised on this list I would package a test suite and a performance test suite if the GNAT sources go in the GCC CVS tree. >> That would certainly be helpful, in particular, packaging the latest ACVC test suite will be very useful. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Why not gnat Ada in gcc? 2000-10-01 8:35 Why not gnat Ada in gcc? Robert Dewar @ 2000-10-10 20:04 ` Jeffrey A Law 2000-10-11 12:37 ` Laurent Guerby 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Jeffrey A Law @ 2000-10-10 20:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Robert Dewar; +Cc: guerby, gcc, rms In message < 20001001153500.5FBCB34D84@nile.gnat.com >you write: > Laurent Guerby asks > > <<I don't know if ACT has debated the issue, but assuming the GNAT > sources end up in the GCC CVS repository what will be the updating > policy between the ACT tree and the public GCC one? One massive update > from ACT per public GNAT version? Minor updates when GCC backend > interface changes are made that break the compilation of the Ada > frontend? Or more frequent updates? > >> > > Certainly new releases of GNAT always have major additions, which will > result in a fairly massive update to the tree (as has happened with > other GNU tools when major updates are made). We will also provide minor > updates and patches as we go along to correct significant problems or > deal with interface changes. I think that's the wrong model. Dumping in massive changes like that makes it nearly impossible for others outside ACT to be involved with development. I would much rather see the GCC CVS sources become the master sources and GNU Ada work happen in that source tree on an incremental basis just like the other parts of the GNU compiler suite. Basically the whole GNAT development process is closed to developers outside ACT. That is terribly unfortunate. jeff ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Why not gnat Ada in gcc? 2000-10-10 20:04 ` Jeffrey A Law @ 2000-10-11 12:37 ` Laurent Guerby 2000-10-12 0:15 ` Jeffrey A Law 2000-10-14 11:27 ` Hartmut Schirmer 0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Laurent Guerby @ 2000-10-11 12:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: law; +Cc: dewar, gcc, rms, guerby Disclaimer: I worked for ACT but I no longer do, I'm on the support client side now. jeff wrote: > I think that's the wrong model. Dumping in massive changes like that makes > it nearly impossible for others outside ACT to be involved with development. > > I would much rather see the GCC CVS sources become the master sources and > GNU Ada work happen in that source tree on an incremental basis just like > the other parts of the GNU compiler suite. > > Basically the whole GNAT development process is closed to developers outside > ACT. That is terribly unfortunate. IMHO, the problem we're trying to correct now is to get past the chicken-and-egg bootstrap problem, no available GCC compatible source means no contribution which means no incentive to provide public up to date sources... If ACT provides sources compatible with the current GCC in CVS and the GCC steering committee accepts it, that's a HUGE progress in the right direction. So far, nothing has been decided (at least not publically on this list) on the topic of the inclusion of the Ada sources in the FSF GCC CVS repository. The model proposed by Robert Dewar is the right one to start with, and it will put the merging burden on ACT if some contributions are indeed made by people having write access to the GNAT sources. If this becomes significant, I assume the natural thing will happen (move of the master source to the FSF CVS repository). But I don't think we're here yet or anytime in less than a year, so I don't think it is useful to argue on the source merging process right now. Up to now, GNAT source releases have been made something like every year, so we have plenty of time ;-). -- Laurent Guerby <guerby@acm.org> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Why not gnat Ada in gcc? 2000-10-11 12:37 ` Laurent Guerby @ 2000-10-12 0:15 ` Jeffrey A Law 2000-10-12 15:40 ` Richard Stallman 2000-10-14 11:27 ` Hartmut Schirmer 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Jeffrey A Law @ 2000-10-12 0:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: guerby; +Cc: dewar, gcc, rms In message < 200010111937.VAA01637@ulmo >you write: > Disclaimer: I worked for ACT but I no longer do, I'm on the support client > side now. Understood. > IMHO, the problem we're trying to correct now is to get past the chicken-an > d-egg > bootstrap problem, no available GCC compatible source means no contribution > which means no incentive to provide public up to date sources... We can get the compiler bootstrapped. It's not the most pleasant thing to do, but nor is it a terrible thing to do. And it only has to be done once and you can then use that compiler to bootstrap later versions. > If ACT provides sources compatible with the current GCC in CVS and the > GCC steering committee accepts it, that's a HUGE progress in the right > direction. So far, nothing has been decided (at least not publically > on this list) on the topic of the inclusion of the Ada sources in the > FSF GCC CVS repository. I'd very much like to see it in the repo. That's the first step, move development into the open where others can contribute in whatever way is most appropriate for them. > > The model proposed by Robert Dewar is the right one to start with, and > it will put the merging burden on ACT if some contributions are indeed > made by people having write access to the GNAT sources. If this > becomes significant, I assume the natural thing will happen (move of > the master source to the FSF CVS repository). But that's there the burden belongs -- on ACT. Cygnus has dealt with this burden for 10 years -- it's the price (IMHO) for wanting to be in the business of supporting and custom development for tools you do not own/control. I'm more than happy to give ACT some pointers on how to manage the process. > But I don't think we're here yet or anytime in less than a year, so I > don't think it is useful to argue on the source merging process right > now. I would claim the opposite. We need this to happen sooner, not later. The longer we wait, the more difficult our work becomes and the longer we have to deal with the problem of developers making changes, but being unable to test that they haven't broken Ada. Jeff ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Why not gnat Ada in gcc? 2000-10-12 0:15 ` Jeffrey A Law @ 2000-10-12 15:40 ` Richard Stallman 2000-10-12 18:45 ` repository [was: Re: Why not gnat Ada in gcc?] Geoff Keating 2000-10-13 8:46 ` Why not gnat Ada in gcc? Jeffrey A Law 0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2000-10-12 15:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: law; +Cc: guerby, dewar, gcc I agree with your arguments that the Ada sources should be included in the main GCC repository, and I would like to see this done soon. But it is unreasonable to ask ACT to put its repository onto a machine run by Cygnus, and associated by the public with Cygnus. If we want to say to ACT that using the GCC repository is the only right thing to do, we need to move the GCC repository to a neutral GNU site first. Also note that I've got the financial committement from Red Hat I need to co-locate the existing box at an AT&T site which should provide a huge increase in network bandwidth. That is nice, but the problems we should solve by moving the repository are not a matter of to network bandwidth. Increasing bandwidth to the repository, while not a bad thing, won't help the GNU Project in any of the larger ways. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* repository [was: Re: Why not gnat Ada in gcc?] 2000-10-12 15:40 ` Richard Stallman @ 2000-10-12 18:45 ` Geoff Keating 2000-10-12 19:25 ` Chris Faylor 2000-10-13 15:03 ` Richard Stallman 2000-10-13 8:46 ` Why not gnat Ada in gcc? Jeffrey A Law 1 sibling, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Geoff Keating @ 2000-10-12 18:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: guerby, dewar, gcc Hi Richard, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > But it is unreasonable to ask ACT to put its repository onto a machine > run by Cygnus, and associated by the public with Cygnus. If we want > to say to ACT that using the GCC repository is the only right thing to > do, we need to move the GCC repository to a neutral GNU site first. * It wasn't well publicised, but Cygnus Solutions merged with Red Hat, Inc., on July 1 of 2000. The name of the merged company is Red Hat, Inc., and so it is no longer appropriate to speak of 'Cygnus', as it no longer exists as a separate entity. * It is also not correct to say that the machine `sourceware.cygnus.com' (aka sources.redhat.com and gcc.gnu.org) is `run by Red Hat' (or Cygnus). It's currently administered by a group of people, who are all Red Hat employees, but do not generally administer it in their capacity as a Red Hat employee; as an example, the on-site administrator is neither a member of the main Red Hat I/S organization nor the Red Hat Engineering Services I/S organization, but is currently a staff engineer. Many of the other admins are doing it in their capacity as FSF project maintainers or steering committee members, which is a personal capacity not part of their employment. It (the machine and the network connection) is _funded_ by Red Hat, but this is of course not the same thing. * I question as to whether any "neutral GNU site"s exist with the capacity to provide such a service. I don't believe the FSF has the resources or competence by itself; the other obvious candidate would be sourceforge, but they are "associated by the public" with VA Linux, and according to their web site the admins' salaries are paid by VA Linux: "VA Linux Systems now pays our salary to offer you these services." * Finally, I'm not sure you're asking the right question. You said "put its repository...". I would never ask this of anyone, as I would expect that ACT has information in its repository, for instance in checkin messages, which is confidential, or private, or was not intended to be released. Instead, the request is that ACT take their current tree, as they would ship it to a nonspecific customer, and check it in, so that the only information released is that encoded in the GPLed sources. -- - Geoffrey Keating <geoffk@cygnus.com> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: repository [was: Re: Why not gnat Ada in gcc?] 2000-10-12 18:45 ` repository [was: Re: Why not gnat Ada in gcc?] Geoff Keating @ 2000-10-12 19:25 ` Chris Faylor 2000-10-13 15:03 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Chris Faylor @ 2000-10-12 19:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Geoff Keating; +Cc: rms, law, guerby, dewar, gcc On Thu, Oct 12, 2000 at 06:44:45PM -0700, Geoff Keating wrote: >* It is also not correct to say that the machine `sourceware.cygnus.com' >(aka sources.redhat.com and gcc.gnu.org) is `run by Red Hat' (or >Cygnus). It's currently administered by a group of people, who are >all Red Hat employees, This is not strictly true. The primary administrators may be from Red Hat, but there are a couple of non Red Hat employees who also assist in administration duties. cgf ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: repository [was: Re: Why not gnat Ada in gcc?] 2000-10-12 18:45 ` repository [was: Re: Why not gnat Ada in gcc?] Geoff Keating 2000-10-12 19:25 ` Chris Faylor @ 2000-10-13 15:03 ` Richard Stallman 2000-10-13 16:16 ` Geoff Keating 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2000-10-13 15:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: geoffk; +Cc: rms * I question as to whether any "neutral GNU site"s exist with the capacity to provide such a service. I don't believe the FSF has the resources or competence by itself; I could try to defend the people who run our CVS server, but there is a more important thing to be said here: you're making a hostile supposition about another part of the GNU Project, and that is not the right way to treat other GNU contributors. GCC development is part of the GNU Project, and all parts of the GNU Project are supposed to cooperate with each other. So if you want to participate, please treat other parts of the GNU Project decently, and give them the benefit of the doubt. If you observe a problem that calls for criticism, offer constructive criticism, not an attack. I would ask people to give you the same consideration as a GNU contributor. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: repository [was: Re: Why not gnat Ada in gcc?] 2000-10-13 15:03 ` Richard Stallman @ 2000-10-13 16:16 ` Geoff Keating 2000-10-15 12:35 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Geoff Keating @ 2000-10-13 16:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: law, guerby, dewar, gcc, rms > Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 16:02:39 -0600 (MDT) > From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> > CC: law@cygnus.com, guerby@acm.org, dewar@gnat.com, gcc@gcc.gnu.org > cc: rms@gnu.org > Reply-to: rms@gnu.org > > * I question as to whether any "neutral GNU site"s exist with > the capacity to provide such a service. I don't believe the FSF has > the resources or competence by itself; > > I could try to defend the people who run our CVS server, but there is > a more important thing to be said here: you're making a hostile > supposition about another part of the GNU Project, and that is not > the right way to treat other GNU contributors. Oops! I'm sorry. I had completely forgotten about subversions. I certainly didn't mean to impute anything about its admins, and apologize to anyone I might have offended. -- - Geoffrey Keating <geoffk@cygnus.com> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: repository [was: Re: Why not gnat Ada in gcc?] 2000-10-13 16:16 ` Geoff Keating @ 2000-10-15 12:35 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2000-10-15 12:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: geoffk; +Cc: law, guerby, dewar, gcc I'm sorry. I had completely forgotten about subversions. I certainly didn't mean to impute anything about its admins, and apologize to anyone I might have offended. Thank you. Everything is cool now. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Why not gnat Ada in gcc? 2000-10-12 15:40 ` Richard Stallman 2000-10-12 18:45 ` repository [was: Re: Why not gnat Ada in gcc?] Geoff Keating @ 2000-10-13 8:46 ` Jeffrey A Law 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Jeffrey A Law @ 2000-10-13 8:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: guerby, dewar, gcc In message < 200010122240.QAA09837@wijiji.santafe.edu >you write: > I agree with your arguments that the Ada sources should be included in > the main GCC repository, and I would like to see this done soon. Good. > But it is unreasonable to ask ACT to put its repository onto a machine > run by Cygnus, and associated by the public with Cygnus. If we want > to say to ACT that using the GCC repository is the only right thing to > do, we need to move the GCC repository to a neutral GNU site first. This is awful funny in a sick sort of way. Red Hat (and formerly Cygnus) has bent over backwards to open up the GCC development environment and try to put all developers on a level playing field. Yet, we have to do even more before you'll encourage a company (ACT) that has de-facto stranglehold on GNU Ada development to open up development of GNU Ada and put all developers on a level playing field. Isn't that somewhat of a double standard? Yes, the machine is physically at Red Hat's Sunnyvale site (Cygnus as a corporate entity no longer exists), but everyone is encouraged to use gcc.gnu.org and with a few exceptions gcc.gnu.org is logically out of the redhat.com/cygnus.com domains. Yes, there has been some content on sources.redhat.com which could be mis-leading in terms of implying control over GCC, GDB or binutils. But as I've always maintained if there is something on that site that is objectionable and gives the wrong impression that we'll fix it. jeff ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Why not gnat Ada in gcc? 2000-10-11 12:37 ` Laurent Guerby 2000-10-12 0:15 ` Jeffrey A Law @ 2000-10-14 11:27 ` Hartmut Schirmer 2000-10-14 12:21 ` Laurent Guerby 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Hartmut Schirmer @ 2000-10-14 11:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: guerby, Laurent Guerby; +Cc: dewar, gcc, rms, guerby [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 698 bytes --] On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, Laurent Guerby wrote: >IMHO, the problem we're trying to correct now is to get past the chicken-and-egg >bootstrap problem, no available GCC compatible source means no contribution >which means no incentive to provide public up to date sources... Configure GNAT to produce java byte code and let it compile itself: JGNAT. This (and any binary produced by JGNAT) can be executed in a JVM or directly on the host using GCC´s java front end: JGNAT gcj Sources -------> byte code -------> hosted GNAT (stage0) Creating JGNAT once (or every few years) should be sufficient. This scheme may work for other self implemented languages as well. Hartmut ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Why not gnat Ada in gcc? 2000-10-14 11:27 ` Hartmut Schirmer @ 2000-10-14 12:21 ` Laurent Guerby 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Laurent Guerby @ 2000-10-14 12:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: hartmut.schirmer; +Cc: gcc I wrote: > IMHO, the problem we're trying to correct now is to get past the chicken-and-egg > bootstrap problem, no available GCC compatible source means no contribution > which means no incentive to provide public up to date sources... The use of "bootstrap" here was unfortunate, but well... Harmut wrote: > Configure GNAT to produce java byte code and let it compile itself: I'm not sure it would work since JGNAT might not support at this point some Ada features used by the GNAT code itself (parts of it are fairly low level and might not work on JVM IIRC). But definitely an interesting thing to look at ;-). -- Laurent Guerby <guerby@acm.org> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2000-10-15 12:35 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 13+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2000-10-01 8:35 Why not gnat Ada in gcc? Robert Dewar 2000-10-10 20:04 ` Jeffrey A Law 2000-10-11 12:37 ` Laurent Guerby 2000-10-12 0:15 ` Jeffrey A Law 2000-10-12 15:40 ` Richard Stallman 2000-10-12 18:45 ` repository [was: Re: Why not gnat Ada in gcc?] Geoff Keating 2000-10-12 19:25 ` Chris Faylor 2000-10-13 15:03 ` Richard Stallman 2000-10-13 16:16 ` Geoff Keating 2000-10-15 12:35 ` Richard Stallman 2000-10-13 8:46 ` Why not gnat Ada in gcc? Jeffrey A Law 2000-10-14 11:27 ` Hartmut Schirmer 2000-10-14 12:21 ` Laurent Guerby
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