From: Olivier Galibert <galibert@pobox.com>
To: Dave Korn <dave.korn@artimi.com>
Cc: 'Andrew Haley' <aph@redhat.com>,
'Robert Dewar' <dewar@adacore.com>,
'Gabriel Dos Reis' <gdr@integrable-solutions.net>,
'Andrew Pinski' <pinskia@physics.uc.edu>,
'gcc mailing list' <gcc@gcc.gnu.org>
Subject: Re: signed is undefined and has been since 1992 (in GCC)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:02:00 -0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20050628180203.GG52889@dspnet.fr.eu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <SERRANO4Hqx6zrWWqGY00000275@SERRANO.CAM.ARTIMI.COM>
On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 06:36:26PM +0100, Dave Korn wrote:
> It certainly wasn't meant to be. It was meant to be a dispassionate
> description of the state of facts. Software that violates the C standard
> just *is* "buggy" or "incorrect", and your personal pride has absolutely
> nothing to do with it.
Then your definition of "incorrect" is uninteresting. Per your
definition, "use of implementation-defined behaviour is incorrect",
essentially no non-trivial program is correct. Including gcc for a
start, which can't be correct, ever.
> If you re-read what *you* originally said, you made it look like you were
> talking in abstract terms about software-in-general,
I said "A very large number of C and C++ programs". That includes
kernels, gnome, kde, lots of things. Or if you want programs I
work(ed) on, xemacs and mame.
> and that's certainly
> what I was referring to when I replied; it's unreasonable of you to point at
> that very generalised sentence and suddenly say "I was talking about my own
> code, even though I hid the fact, and so you've insulted me by disparaging
> it".
You disparaged probably around 99% of a typical linux distribution.
Find one non-trivial program that doesn't assume that int is 32 bits.
Find one of *your* programs that doesn't.
> No number of correct assumptions about the sizes of various types or the
> representation of NULL pointers will validate the incorrect assumption that
> signed integer arithmetic could be made to wrap without obliging the
> compiler to emit lousy code and miss an awful lot of loop-optimisation
> opportunities.
Sure, and you'll notice I always special-cased the loop induction
variables. Maybe you should reread what I was replying to:
On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 08:57:20AM -0400, Robert Dewar wrote:
> But the whole idea of hardware semantics is bogus, since you are
> assuming some connection between C and the hardware which does not
> exist. C is not an assembly language.
That is what I utterly disagree with.
OG.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2005-06-28 18:02 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 119+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2005-06-28 4:08 Andrew Pinski
2005-06-28 4:20 ` Michael Veksler
2005-06-28 9:49 ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-28 4:34 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-06-28 4:50 ` Andrew Pinski
2005-06-28 5:13 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-06-28 5:34 ` Andrew Pinski
2005-06-28 6:01 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-06-28 9:18 ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-28 11:50 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-06-28 12:07 ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-28 12:33 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-06-28 12:57 ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-28 13:19 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-06-28 22:58 ` Georg Bauhaus
2005-06-28 23:53 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-06-29 0:27 ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-29 0:43 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-06-29 0:48 ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-29 1:14 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-06-29 1:21 ` Diego Novillo
2005-06-29 2:19 ` Marcin Dalecki
2005-06-29 3:13 ` Scott Robert Ladd
2005-06-28 14:24 ` Olivier Galibert
2005-06-28 14:28 ` Jonathan Wilson
2005-06-28 14:42 ` Olivier Galibert
2005-06-28 14:39 ` Dave Korn
2005-06-28 14:52 ` Olivier Galibert
2005-06-28 15:01 ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-28 15:04 ` Andrew Haley
2005-06-28 17:18 ` Olivier Galibert
2005-06-28 17:36 ` Dave Korn
2005-06-28 18:02 ` Olivier Galibert [this message]
2005-06-28 18:36 ` Dave Korn
2005-06-28 18:56 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-06-28 19:10 ` Olivier Galibert
2005-06-28 19:13 ` Andrew Pinski
2005-06-28 19:20 ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-28 21:48 ` Joe Buck
2005-06-28 19:25 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-06-28 19:32 ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-28 19:48 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-06-28 20:37 ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-28 20:58 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-06-28 21:57 ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-28 21:44 ` Joe Buck
2005-06-28 21:50 ` Olivier Galibert
2005-06-28 21:59 ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-28 18:52 ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-28 19:17 ` Olivier Galibert
2005-06-28 19:21 ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-28 20:18 ` Paul Koning
2005-06-28 20:24 ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-28 21:41 ` Joe Buck
2005-06-28 21:53 ` Michael Veksler
2005-06-28 23:05 ` Michael Veksler
2005-07-02 17:15 ` Florian Weimer
2005-07-02 18:59 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-07-02 23:20 ` Robert Dewar
2005-07-03 0:07 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-07-03 9:49 ` Robert Dewar
2005-07-02 23:12 ` Nicholas Nethercote
2005-07-02 23:20 ` Robert Dewar
2005-07-03 0:13 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-07-03 9:54 ` Robert Dewar
2005-07-03 10:02 ` Florian Weimer
2005-07-03 10:10 ` Robert Dewar
2005-07-03 12:01 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-07-14 7:21 ` Marc Espie
2005-07-02 17:06 ` Florian Weimer
2005-06-28 17:51 ` Joe Buck
2005-06-28 18:21 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-06-28 18:53 ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-28 18:28 ` Olivier Galibert
2005-06-28 18:38 ` Dave Korn
2005-06-28 18:50 ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-28 19:02 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-06-28 19:17 ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-28 19:43 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-06-28 20:31 ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-28 20:51 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-06-28 20:59 ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-28 21:20 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-06-28 21:27 ` Paul Koning
2005-06-28 21:39 ` Andreas Schwab
2005-06-28 21:35 ` Joe Buck
2005-06-28 22:09 ` Joseph S. Myers
2005-06-28 22:16 ` Falk Hueffner
2005-06-29 6:59 ` Eric Botcazou
2005-06-28 22:19 ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-28 16:42 ` Joe Buck
2005-06-28 17:10 ` Dave Korn
2005-06-28 17:21 ` Joe Buck
2005-06-28 22:41 ` Georg Bauhaus
2005-06-28 14:47 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-06-28 16:38 ` Joe Buck
2005-06-28 21:59 ` Mike Stump
2005-06-28 13:47 ` Gabriel Paubert
2005-06-28 13:52 ` Andrew Pinski
2005-06-28 14:33 ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-28 12:08 ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-28 12:34 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-06-28 7:25 ` Michael Veksler
2005-06-28 16:32 ` Joe Buck
2005-06-28 16:56 ` Joe Buck
2005-06-28 17:03 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-06-28 17:34 ` Joe Buck
2005-06-28 18:09 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-06-28 17:35 ` Diego Novillo
2005-06-28 6:55 ` Steven Bosscher
2005-06-28 7:20 ` Michael Veksler
2005-06-28 7:39 ` Falk Hueffner
2005-06-28 12:08 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-06-28 12:01 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2005-06-28 16:59 Morten Welinder
2005-06-28 17:23 ` Olivier Galibert
2005-06-28 18:44 ` Michael Veksler
2005-06-28 17:41 Paul Schlie
[not found] <2382433.1119938227627.JavaMail.root@dtm1eusosrv72.dtm.ops.eu.uu.net>
2005-06-28 19:44 ` Toon Moene
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