From: "Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@linux.vnet.ibm.com>
To: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>
Cc: Torvald Riegel <triegel@redhat.com>,
Will Deacon <will.deacon@arm.com>,
Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>,
Ramana Radhakrishnan <Ramana.Radhakrishnan@arm.com>,
David Howells <dhowells@redhat.com>,
"linux-arch@vger.kernel.org" <linux-arch@vger.kernel.org>,
"linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org"
<linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
"akpm@linux-foundation.org" <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
"mingo@kernel.org" <mingo@kernel.org>,
"gcc@gcc.gnu.org" <gcc@gcc.gnu.org>,
Mark Batty <mbatty@cl.cam.ac.uk>,
Peter Sewell <Peter.Sewell@cl.cam.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [RFC][PATCH 0/5] arch: atomic rework
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 18:26:00 -0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20140220182628.GW4250@linux.vnet.ibm.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CA+55aFyEEUrAz2r=nKxZxUtPVs7zoER9HukQq11UixnrYWbsjA@mail.gmail.com>
On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 09:34:57AM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Torvald Riegel <triegel@redhat.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> So the clarification is basically to the statement that the "if
> >> (consume(p)) a" version *would* have an ordering guarantee between the
> >> read of "p" and "a", but the "consume(p) ? a : b" would *not* have
> >> such an ordering guarantee. Yes?
> >
> > Not as I understand it. If my reply above wasn't clear, let me know and
> > I'll try to rephrase it into something that is.
>
> Yeah, so you and Paul agree. And as I mentioned in the email that
> crossed with yours, I think that means that the standard is overly
> complex, hard to understand, fragile, and all *pointlessly* so.
>
> Btw, there are many ways that "use a consume as an input to a
> conditional" can happen. In particular, even if the result is actually
> *used* like a pointer as far as the programmer is concerned, tricks
> like pointer compression etc can well mean that the "pointer" is
> actually at least partly implemented using conditionals, so that some
> paths end up being only dependent through a comparison of the pointer
> value.
>
> So I very much did *not* want to complicate the "litmus test" code
> snippet when Paul tried to make it more complex, but I do think that
> there are cases where code that "looks" like pure pointer chasing
> actually is not for some cases, and then can become basically that
> litmus test for some path.
>
> Just to give you an example: in simple list handling it is not at all
> unusual to have a special node that is discovered by comparing the
> address, not by just loading from the pointer and following the list
> itself. Examples of that would be a HEAD node in a doubly linked list
> (Linux uses this concept quite widely, it's our default list
> implementation), or it could be a place-marker ("cursor" entry) in the
> list for safe traversal in the presence of concurrent deletes etc.
Yep, good example. And also an example where the comparison does not
need to create any particular ordering.
> And obviously there is the already much earlier mentioned
> compiler-induced compare, due to value speculation, that can basically
> create such sequences even wherethey did not originally exist in the
> source code itself.
>
> So even if you work with "pointer dereferences", and thus match that
> particular consume pattern, I really don't see why anybody would think
> that "hey, we can ignore any control dependencies" is a good idea.
> It's a *TERRIBLE* idea.
>
> And as mentioned, it's a terrible idea with no upsides. It doesn't
> help compiler optimizations for the case it's *intended* to help,
> since those optimizations can still be done without the horribly
> broken semantics. It doesn't help compiler writers, it just confuses
> them.
>
> And it sure as hell doesn't help users.
Yep. And in 2014 we know a lot more about the hardware, so could make a
reasonable proposal. In contrast, back in 2007 and 2008 memory ordering
was much more of a dark art, and proposals for control dependencies
therefore didn't get very far.
Thanx, Paul
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2014-02-20 18:26 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 279+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
[not found] <20140206134825.305510953@infradead.org>
[not found] ` <21984.1391711149@warthog.procyon.org.uk>
2014-02-06 18:55 ` Ramana Radhakrishnan
2014-02-06 18:59 ` Will Deacon
2014-02-06 19:27 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-06 21:17 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-06 22:11 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-06 23:45 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-07 4:21 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-07 7:44 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-07 16:50 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-07 16:55 ` Will Deacon
2014-02-07 17:07 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-07 17:13 ` Will Deacon
2014-02-07 17:20 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-07 18:03 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-07 17:46 ` Joseph S. Myers
2014-02-07 18:43 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-07 18:02 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-10 0:28 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-10 0:56 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-10 1:16 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-10 1:24 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-10 1:46 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-10 2:04 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-10 3:21 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-10 3:45 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-10 11:46 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-10 19:09 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-11 15:59 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-12 6:06 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-12 9:19 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-12 17:52 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-12 18:12 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-17 18:18 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-17 20:38 ` Richard Biener
2014-02-17 22:14 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-17 22:27 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-14 5:08 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-14 9:50 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-14 19:19 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-12 17:50 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-12 5:39 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-12 18:19 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-12 20:22 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-13 0:24 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-13 20:04 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-14 2:01 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-14 4:43 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-14 17:29 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-14 19:22 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-14 19:50 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-14 20:02 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-15 2:08 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-15 2:44 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-15 2:48 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-15 6:35 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-15 6:58 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-15 18:07 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-17 18:59 ` Joseph S. Myers
2014-02-17 19:19 ` Will Deacon
2014-02-17 19:41 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-17 23:13 ` Joseph S. Myers
2014-02-15 17:45 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-15 18:49 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-17 19:55 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-17 20:18 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-17 21:21 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-17 22:02 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-17 22:25 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-17 22:48 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-17 23:42 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-18 0:18 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-18 1:26 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 15:39 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-18 16:55 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 19:57 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-17 23:10 ` Alec Teal
2014-02-18 0:05 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-18 15:31 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-18 16:49 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-18 17:16 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 18:23 ` Peter Sewell
2014-02-18 19:00 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-18 19:42 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 21:40 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-18 21:53 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-19 9:52 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-18 22:58 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-19 10:59 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-19 15:32 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-19 17:56 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-19 22:12 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 21:27 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-18 21:40 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-18 21:47 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-19 15:23 ` David Lang
2014-02-19 18:11 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-18 21:47 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-19 11:07 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-19 11:42 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-18 22:14 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-19 14:41 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-19 19:49 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-18 3:00 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 3:25 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-18 3:42 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-18 5:22 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 16:17 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-18 17:44 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-18 19:40 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 19:48 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-20 0:53 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-20 4:01 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-20 4:43 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-20 8:30 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-20 9:20 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-20 17:01 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-20 18:12 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-20 18:32 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-20 18:53 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-20 19:09 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-22 18:53 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-22 21:53 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-23 0:39 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-23 3:50 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-23 9:22 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-23 19:31 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-24 1:17 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-24 1:35 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-24 5:00 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-24 5:26 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-24 15:57 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-24 16:27 ` Richard Biener
2014-02-24 16:37 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-24 16:40 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-24 16:55 ` Michael Matz
2014-02-24 17:29 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-24 17:57 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-26 17:40 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-24 17:38 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-24 18:12 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-26 17:34 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-24 17:21 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-24 18:14 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-24 18:53 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-24 19:54 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-24 22:37 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-24 23:35 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-25 6:00 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-26 1:47 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-26 5:12 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-25 6:05 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-26 0:16 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-26 3:32 ` Jeff Law
2014-02-26 5:23 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-27 15:37 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-27 17:01 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-27 19:06 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-27 19:47 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-27 20:53 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-01 0:50 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-01 10:06 ` Peter Sewell
2014-03-01 14:04 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-02 10:05 ` Peter Sewell
2014-03-02 23:21 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-02 23:44 ` Peter Sewell
2014-03-03 4:25 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-03 20:44 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-03-04 22:11 ` Peter Sewell
2014-03-05 17:15 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-03-05 18:37 ` Peter Sewell
2014-03-03 19:08 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-03-03 19:20 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-03 20:46 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-03-04 19:00 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-04 21:35 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-05 16:55 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-03-05 18:15 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-07 18:33 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-03-07 19:11 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-05 16:26 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-03-05 18:01 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-07 17:46 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-03-07 19:02 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-03 18:59 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-03-03 15:36 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-27 17:50 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-27 19:22 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-28 1:02 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-03 19:29 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-03-03 19:01 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-20 18:56 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-20 19:45 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-20 22:10 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-20 22:52 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-21 18:35 ` Michael Matz
2014-02-21 19:13 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-21 22:11 ` Joseph S. Myers
2014-02-21 22:37 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-26 13:09 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-26 18:43 ` Joseph S. Myers
2014-02-27 0:53 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-24 13:55 ` Michael Matz
2014-02-24 17:40 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-26 13:04 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-26 18:27 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-20 18:44 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-20 18:56 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-20 18:23 ` Torvald Riegel
[not found] ` <CAHWkzRQZ8+gOGMFNyTKjFNzpUv6d_J1G9KL0x_iCa=YCgvEojQ@mail.gmail.com>
2014-02-21 19:16 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-21 19:41 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-21 19:48 ` Peter Sewell
[not found] ` <CAHWkzRSO82jU-9dtTEjHaW2FeLcEqdZXxp5Q8cmVTTT9uhZQYw@mail.gmail.com>
2014-02-21 20:22 ` Linus Torvalds
[not found] ` <CAHWkzRRxqhH+DnuQHu9bM4ywGBen3oqtT8W4Xqt1CFAHy2WQRg@mail.gmail.com>
2014-02-21 19:24 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-20 17:54 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-20 18:12 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-20 17:49 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-20 18:25 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-20 19:02 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-20 19:06 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-20 17:26 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-20 18:18 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-22 18:31 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-22 20:18 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-20 17:16 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-20 17:35 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-20 18:12 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-20 18:26 ` Paul E. McKenney [this message]
2014-02-18 5:02 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 15:56 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-18 16:51 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-17 20:23 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-17 21:06 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-15 17:30 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-15 19:16 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-17 22:10 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-17 22:32 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-17 23:17 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-18 0:09 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-18 16:39 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-10 11:48 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-10 11:49 ` Will Deacon
2014-02-10 12:05 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-10 15:06 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-10 16:23 ` Will Deacon
2014-02-07 18:45 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-10 0:07 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-10 3:52 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-12 5:13 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-12 18:26 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-06 21:09 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-06 21:55 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-06 22:58 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-07 4:06 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-07 9:13 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-07 16:44 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-06 22:13 ` Joseph S. Myers
2014-02-06 23:25 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-06 23:33 ` Joseph S. Myers
2014-02-07 12:01 ` Will Deacon
2014-02-07 16:48 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 12:12 Peter Sewell
2014-02-18 12:54 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-18 16:09 ` Peter Sewell
2014-02-18 14:57 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 15:17 ` Mark Batty
2014-02-18 17:17 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 15:33 ` Peter Sewell
2014-02-18 16:47 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 17:38 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-18 18:21 ` Peter Sewell
2014-02-18 18:49 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-18 19:47 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 20:46 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-18 20:43 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-18 21:30 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 23:48 ` Peter Sewell
2014-02-19 9:46 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-26 3:06 George Spelvin
2014-02-26 5:22 ` Paul E. McKenney
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