What happen if... (related GPL & src)

What happen if... (related GPL & src)

[hgbasm]

I have a question.

I will read or desire to read the source code of gcc, but if I for 
example make some anotations or some work based in my notes, or I get a 
idea of how to implement X thing,  or I think that certain idea is nice, 
and then I make my own compiler this compiler should need by under GPL?

 From http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html

[quote]*6.* Each time you redistribute the Program (or any work based on 
the Program), the recipient automatically receives a license from the 
original licensor to copy, distribute or modify the Program subject to 
these terms and conditions. You may not impose any further restrictions 
on the recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein. You are not 
responsible for enforcing compliance by third parties to this 
License.[/quote]

Altought I consider a little opaque the concept of the "programm" in 
that licence, but anyway, I like that you answer first this question.



Hope you can help me out.

Re: What happen if... (related GPL & src)

[Ian Lance Taylor]

hgbasm <hgbasm@yahoo.com.mx> writes:

> I will read or desire to read the source code of gcc, but if I for
> example make some anotations or some work based in my notes, or I get
> a idea of how to implement X thing,  or I think that certain idea is
> nice, and then I make my own compiler this compiler should need by
> under GPL?

Believe it or not, this is not really a gcc question.  It is a
question about the GPL.  Try gnu.misc.discuss.

My answer is that your compiler is covered by the GPL if it is a
derivative work of gcc.  When is it a derivative work?  Nobody can
tell you for sure, as the notion of a derivative work in software is
not spelled out by law or by the court system.  Taking an idea from
gcc and reimplementing it yourself will probably not itself cause your
implementation to be a derivative work.

Ian

Re: What happen if... (related GPL & src)

[hgbasm]

Thanks, I will redirect my question to

gnu.misc.discuss

because I was planning in do some "research" in fact read some source, 
your ones (GCC) and mesa3d, but after thinking a little about software 
patents and what is GPL, now I am feared because like now I see they are 
the same moster (that is my actuall feeling).

I will read the codes because I remember one teacher that talk to us 
about a guy at sun(java) that master itself in poetry instead of 
computing, when he get out, he say some like "poetry and programming are 
really more equivalent to what you think, the level of imagination 
involved, the complexity, etc are both equivalent, the only diference 
that I watch was that poetry is teached saying students to read the 
greates novels, poems, etc. Then copy them and then making is own style. 
But in the side of programming they only show you the sintaxis of 
languages and make you do things, instead of send to you to read the 
greatfull pieces of code out there..."


But I have taked fear now watching that sixth point, and sure if GPL can 
claim that if I read your source code or mesa code, and I do some 
myself, sure I will NEVER read your code.

I see now the diference from a book that really dosent restrict on how 
to use any derivate work (because you acquire the knowledge from the 
text) and then a derivation (with you own paths, imagination and mind) 
take the place for apply in any that you whant.

wonderfull of you people when your acquisition of knowledge, 
imagination, freedom of imagination and speech where not targeted be 
patents, Licenses and pheraphs others things that will come later.






Sorry if is not the place to say it, but I whant to answer in this 
moment, anyway, I will post this and the anterior post that I do to the 
place that you have sayed me, also I will post here the link about my 
feeling in that place (if you whant to follow up).

Thx anyway ;) , gl & hf.

Ian Lance Taylor wrote:

>hgbasm <hgbasm@yahoo.com.mx> writes:
>
>  
>
>>I will read or desire to read the source code of gcc, but if I for
>>example make some anotations or some work based in my notes, or I get
>>a idea of how to implement X thing,  or I think that certain idea is
>>nice, and then I make my own compiler this compiler should need by
>>under GPL?
>>    
>>
>
>Believe it or not, this is not really a gcc question.  It is a
>question about the GPL.  Try gnu.misc.discuss.
>
>My answer is that your compiler is covered by the GPL if it is a
>derivative work of gcc.  When is it a derivative work?  Nobody can
>tell you for sure, as the notion of a derivative work in software is
>not spelled out by law or by the court system.  Taking an idea from
>gcc and reimplementing it yourself will probably not itself cause your
>implementation to be a derivative work.
>
>Ian
>
>  
>

Re: What happen if... (related GPL & src)

[Robert Dewar]

Ian Lance Taylor wrote:

> My answer is that your compiler is covered by the GPL if it is a
> derivative work of gcc.  When is it a derivative work?  Nobody can
> tell you for sure, as the notion of a derivative work in software is
> not spelled out by law or by the court system.  Taking an idea from
> gcc and reimplementing it yourself will probably not itself cause your
> implementation to be a derivative work.
> 
> Ian

I know this is off topic, but Ian answered it, so it seems appropriate
to correct some possible misconceptions.

First of all, nothing is ever automatically covered by the GPL. There is
no such concept as automatic coverage. A license in a case like this is
something that is offered by the creator to a potential user. It's really
important to emphasize this point, since the idea that your work can be
automatically covered by the GPL is one that opponents of free software
often erroneously present ("be careful about using Linux, you may
automatically lose your IPR to your software" -- I use Linux deliberately
in this quote (rather than GNU/Linux), since the opponents of Free Software
rarely give GNU credit :-(

The actual situation is that if you derive something from a work for
which you have a GPL license, then this license specifically allows
you to create deriviative works for your own use without limitation.

If you  want to distribute this deriviative work to others, then you
need a license to do this. The GPL serves as such a license, provided
that *you* make the decision to distribute the entire deriviative work
under the GPL.

If you don't want to make your work available under the GPL, then you
can either avoid distributing it, or you can see if the author of the
original work will provide some other kind of licensing rights.

If you distribute the derived work without granting a GPL license, then
that's a potential copyright violation, which the original author can
pursue, but there is no issue of the work being automatically covered
by the GPL.

Re: What happen if... (related GPL & src)

[Robert Dewar]

hgbasm wrote:

> But I have taked fear now watching that sixth point, and sure if GPL can 
> claim that if I read your source code or mesa code, and I do some 
> myself, sure I will NEVER read your code.

Don't worry, copyright does not protect ideas, it just stops you from
copying the code
> 
> I see now the diference from a book that really dosent restrict on how 
> to use any derivate work (because you acquire the knowledge from the 
> text) and then a derivation (with you own paths, imagination and mind) 
> take the place for apply in any that you whant.

Software is just the same, copyright stops you copying a book, and
the same prevention applies to software. So feel free to read the
GCC code and borrow its ideas freely.
> 
> wonderfull of you people when your acquisition of knowledge, 
> imagination, freedom of imagination and speech where not targeted be 
> patents, Licenses and pheraphs others things that will come later.

Patents are quite another matter (and definitely far off topic!)
But you don't have to worry about patents either when reading the
gcc code (or at least not much, no one can fully defend against the
more egregious effects of patents -- after all if you thought up an
idea yourself, you could still be running afoul of patents, but you
can never accidentally violate a copyright by independent creation).

Re: What happen if... (related GPL & src)

[hgbasm]

OK, I have understand some things, I guess, but there is some feeling in 
me that still dosent like GPL  I have my reasons (I will not explain 
them here and need to read more), but anyway, I will read the code, like 
I understand it dosent have "power" to cover what I whant to do, and 
that is:

Read the code and write a paper called "look inside" I select GCC and 
mesa3d because languages, 3D and OS are my favourite topics amoung 
others, but specifically this ones. I dont really know much about this 
topics (languages and 3D), then I will take your source code like my 
first book [books dosent restrict you in what you do with the knowledge 
that you acquire, from what book have you readed first? (curiosity)] 
(because I dont have much money for buy a book like the red dragon or 
others that are called "must have").


I will not write a front end, only will analise the ideas/algorithms and 
the basic structure.

When I am ready to make my language it will be completely new, this mean 
it will not look like GCC or even C or another one, I am targeting other 
things more related to languages (decidability, readability, 
comucability, and other logic philoshopic things out there... altough 
dont know much), pheraphs targetting poetry in the expresion ;), nice.

This is because I will not distribute the programm (aka software), I 
will be in the part of analize the source code, that I think/know is a 
diferent thing.





Only a last favour (very off-topic sure), you have a good resource for 
learn ADTs/algorithms?



Thanks for answer me about not to fear the GPL license. By the way, if 
you whant to follow I have posted in the place that was recommend before.

Thank you all.

Re: What happen if... (related GPL & src)

[Bobby McNulty]

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hgbasm wrote:

> OK, I have understand some things, I guess, but there is some feeling 
> in me that still dosent like GPL  I have my reasons (I will not 
> explain them here and need to read more), but anyway, I will read the 
> code, like I understand it dosent have "power" to cover what I whant 
> to do, and that is:
>
> Read the code and write a paper called "look inside" I select GCC and 
> mesa3d because languages, 3D and OS are my favourite topics amoung 
> others, but specifically this ones. I dont really know much about this 
> topics (languages and 3D), then I will take your source code like my 
> first book [books dosent restrict you in what you do with the 
> knowledge that you acquire, from what book have you readed first? 
> (curiosity)] (because I dont have much money for buy a book like the 
> red dragon or others that are called "must have").
>
>
> I will not write a front end, only will analise the ideas/algorithms 
> and the basic structure.
>
> When I am ready to make my language it will be completely new, this 
> mean it will not look like GCC or even C or another one, I am 
> targeting other things more related to languages (decidability, 
> readability, comucability, and other logic philoshopic things out 
> there... altough dont know much), pheraphs targetting poetry in the 
> expresion ;), nice.
>
> This is because I will not distribute the programm (aka software), I 
> will be in the part of analize the source code, that I think/know is a 
> diferent thing.
>
>
>
>
>
> Only a last favour (very off-topic sure), you have a good resource for 
> learn ADTs/algorithms?
>
>
>
> Thanks for answer me about not to fear the GPL license. By the way, if 
> you whant to follow I have posted in the place that was recommend before.
>
> Thank you all.
>
Can you write proper english? I have no idea to what you wrote here.
GPL means that you can modify the code as you see fit, to increase the 
capability of that code, in this case, the GCC compiler collection.
GPL is copyleft. It is not restrictrive. Can you write an entire novel 
based on just one book? I think not.
I have spent 20 reading science fiction. I use it daily when I'm on the 
computer.
Right now, as I am typing this, I am recored Star Trek: The Next 
generation with my PVR.
It was written in C++, probably GNU C++. What is restrictive in Visual 
C++. Gnu C++ is alway being updated. Many changes in the software 
industry are being done right here.
This list is for newcomers, like you, and companies like IBM, Electronic 
Arts, Mandrake, and Redhat. Yes, even Microsoft. Bill gates has a 
product that is now available for free based on the Gnu tool chain. It 
integrates the posix layer into Windows. It is called Windows Services 
for Unix.
I'm going to download it. I use it to speed up the system.
I have also spent 21 years programming. I started on a Vic-20, and 
worked my way up to what I have now. GPL is good, not bad. Read it 
again. You are not interpreting right.
It allows  others to modify your code, so they can improve it, make it 
better.
GCC 4.0 is coming soon. It took these guys 10 years to go from Version 1 
to Verson 3.
from 3 to 4, it took them 3 years. Why? Because of the GPL and advances 
in programming.
GCC also consists of Ada, Fortran, Objective C and Java. Sadly, my 
platform (cygwin) has not been updated or changed in Java. No one is 
interested in it. Rather that creating a new language, use one of the 
standards. They are right here. All you have to do is download from CVS 
or download a tar ball. Simple. And learn to write English.



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Re: What happen if... (related GPL & src)

[Joe Buck]

Please do not debate licensing on this list.  That's why gnu.misc.discuss
exists.

Re: What happen if... (related GPL & src)

[Bobby McNulty]

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Joe Buck wrote:

>Please do not debate licensing on this list.  That's why gnu.misc.discuss
>exists.
>
>
>  
>
Fine with me.
I did not understand anything from that person, bringing that up.


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Re: What happen if... (related GPL & src)

[hgbasm]

In gnu.misc.discuss you can follow up, I have moved there.

If whant clarification with my unproper english you can send me a email 
if you whant, no problem with that.


Have a nie day or night.