From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from resdmta-po-01v.sys.comcast.net (resdmta-po-01v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe16:19:96:114:154:209]) by sourceware.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C89B93851C24 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 2021 15:27:58 +0000 (GMT) DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 sourceware.org C89B93851C24 Received: from resqmta-po-11v.sys.comcast.net ([96.114.154.170]) by resdmta-po-01v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id X3ruldE2cHIagX3uPlrMSr; Thu, 15 Apr 2021 15:27:57 +0000 Received: from resomta-po-20v.sys.comcast.net ([96.114.154.244]) by resqmta-po-11v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id X3AJlR7vuGk1lX3uOl7rpl; Thu, 15 Apr 2021 15:27:56 +0000 Received: from pkoning.akdesign.com ([73.60.223.101]) by resomta-po-20v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPSA id X3uHltnHmNTEVX3uJlTIPy; Thu, 15 Apr 2021 15:27:52 +0000 X-Xfinity-VAAS: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudelfedgledvucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuvehomhgtrghsthdqtfgvshhipdfqfgfvpdfpqffurfetoffkrfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedtudenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomheprfgruhhlucfmohhnihhnghcuoehprghulhhkohhnihhnghestghomhgtrghsthdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepgedthfegjeeiheevheekffekteetheejffeuffevjeffvdejfeeltdfhveeftedunecukfhppeejfedriedtrddvvdefrddutddunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehhvghlohepphhkohhnihhnghdrrghkuggvshhighhnrdgtohhmpdhinhgvthepjeefrdeitddrvddvfedruddtuddpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehprghulhhkohhnihhnghestghomhgtrghsthdrnhgvthdprhgtphhtthhopehirghinhesshgrnhguohgvrdgtohdruhhkpdhrtghpthhtohepghgttgesghgttgdrghhnuhdrohhrgh X-Xfinity-VMeta: sc=-100.00;st=legit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Subject: Re: removing toxic emailers From: Paul Koning In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 11:27:49 -0400 Cc: GCC Development Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6E1497BE-EF6F-4B31-9BAE-27D91C541804@comcast.net> References: <20210414131843.GA4138043@thyrsus.com> <093dbfde-a7b5-a55c-8a03-3e82460bce67@acm.org> <82189248-2E7D-46FF-A0A4-7C3D79463D54@comcast.net> <20210415140057.GB51340@thyrsus.com> To: Iain Sandoe X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00, DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, DKIM_VALID_EF, FREEMAIL_FROM, JMQ_SPF_NEUTRAL, SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_PASS, TXREP autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on server2.sourceware.org X-BeenThere: gcc@gcc.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Gcc mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 15:28:00 -0000 > On Apr 15, 2021, at 11:17 AM, Iain Sandoe wrote: >=20 > ... > responding in general to this part of the thread. >=20 > * The GCC environment is not hostile, and has not been for the 15 or = so > years I=E2=80=99ve been part of the community. Glad to see you feel that way; my view matches yours. > * We would notice if it became so, I=E2=80=99m not sure about the idea = that the wool > can be so easily pulled over our eyes. >=20 > I confess to being concerned with the equation =E2=80=9Ccode=E2=80=9D = > =E2=80=9Cconduct=E2=80=9D; it is not > so in my professional or personal experience. I have seen an = engineering > team suffer great losses of performance from the excesses of one (near = genius, > but very antisocial) member - the balance was not met. Likewise, it = has been > seen to be a poor balance when there are three gifted individuals in a = household > but one persecutes the other two (for diagnosed reaons).. again = balance is not > met >=20 > One could see the equation becoming a self-fullfilling prophecy viz. >=20 > * let us say compilers are complex, and any significant input over = length of time > will require a resonably competent engineer. >=20 > * reasonably competent engineers with a good social habit are welcome = everywhere >=20 > * reasonably competent engineers with poor social habit are welcome in = few places. All true. > - those few places will easily be able to demonstrate that their = progress is made > despite the poor atmosphere, with no way to know that something = better was possible. >=20 > responding to the thread in general.. >=20 > * Please could we try to seek concensus? >=20 > - it is disappointing to see people treating this as some kind of = point-scoring game > when to those working on the compiler day to day it is far from a = game. I'm not sure what the consensus is you're looking for. Consensus on the = principle that people should behave in a civil fashion? Yes, I agree = with that. =20 The difficulty, as I mentioned, is in deciding in concrete situations = whether that principle was violated and what should be done about it. = So I think the easy part is the principle; the hard part is the process = that will enforce the principle in those cases where it needs to be -- = and ONLY in those cases. Again, if the question had come up 10 years = ago I wouldn't be so worried; but in 2021 after years of watching people = being blacklisted for daring to speak the wrong politics of the day, I = can no longer do so. paul