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From: Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de>
To: Paul Schlie <schlie@comcast.net>
Cc: "Joseph S. Myers" <joseph@codesourcery.com>,
	 Dale Johannesen <dalej@apple.com>,
	 Robert Dewar <dewar@adacore.com>,  Mike Stump <mrs@apple.com>,
	 Andrew Pinski <pinskia@physics.uc.edu>,
	 GCC Development <gcc@gcc.gnu.org>
Subject: Re: basic VRP min/max range overflow question
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:01:00 -0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87oea3gz29.fsf@deneb.enyo.de> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <BED9E540.A897%schlie@comcast.net> (Paul Schlie's message of "Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:50:40 -0400")

* Paul Schlie:

> So in effect the standard committee have chosen to allow any program which
> invokes any undefined behavior to behave arbitrarily without diagnosis?
>
> This is a good thing?

It's the way things are.  There isn't a real market for
bounds-checking C compilers, for example, which offer well-defined
semantics even for completely botched pointer arithmetic and pointer
dereference.

C isn't a programming language which protects its own abstractions
(unlike Java, or certain Ada or Common Lisp subsets), and C never was
intended to work this way.  Consequently, the committee was right to
deal with undefined behavior in the way it did.  Otherwise, the
industry would have adopted C as we know it, and the ISO C standard
would have had the same relevance as, say, the ISO Pascal on the
evolution of Pascal.

Keep in mind that the interest in "safe" langauges (which protect
their abstractions) for commercial production code is a very, very
recent development, and I'm not sure if this is just an accident.

  parent reply	other threads:[~2005-06-18 21:01 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 70+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2005-06-18 14:15 Paul Schlie
2005-06-18 16:19 ` Joseph S. Myers
2005-06-18 17:44   ` Paul Schlie
2005-06-18 18:05     ` Paul Schlie
2005-06-18 18:21       ` Joseph S. Myers
2005-06-18 18:50         ` Paul Schlie
2005-06-18 19:57           ` Joseph S. Myers
2005-06-18 21:01           ` Florian Weimer [this message]
2005-06-19 10:18             ` Kai Henningsen
2005-06-20 22:20           ` Mike Stump
2005-06-18 19:16         ` Paul Schlie
2005-06-18 21:26           ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-19 18:23             ` Paul Schlie
2005-06-20  2:44               ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-20  5:55                 ` Paul Schlie
2005-06-20 10:14                   ` Michael Veksler
2005-06-20 11:04                     ` Paul Schlie
2005-06-20 11:32                       ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-20 12:08                         ` Paul Schlie
2005-06-20 12:39                           ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-20 13:01                             ` Paul Schlie
2005-06-20 13:14                               ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-20 12:23                       ` Michael Veksler
2005-06-20 12:46                         ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-20 10:43                   ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-20 10:54                     ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-20 11:26                       ` Paul Schlie
2005-06-20 11:34                         ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-20 12:09                           ` Paul Schlie
2005-06-20 11:14                     ` Paul Schlie
2005-06-20 12:53                       ` Michael Veksler
2005-06-20 12:59                         ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-20 13:09                         ` Paul Schlie
2005-06-20 13:17                           ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-20 14:54                           ` Michael Veksler
2005-06-20 18:01                             ` Paul Schlie
2005-06-18 18:08     ` Joseph S. Myers
2005-06-18 21:08   ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-19 10:18     ` Kai Henningsen
2005-06-19 10:49       ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-20 13:22         ` Sebastian Pop
2005-06-20 18:10           ` DJ Delorie
2005-07-13  7:57             ` Sebastian Pop
2005-07-13 15:18               ` DJ Delorie
2005-06-21 15:21           ` Robert Dewar
2005-07-18 16:34             ` Sebastian Pop
2005-07-18 16:44               ` Robert Dewar
2005-07-19  6:44                 ` Sebastian Pop
2005-07-19  7:07                   ` Michael Veksler
2005-07-19  9:55                     ` Sebastian Pop
2005-07-19 10:22                       ` Michael Veksler
2005-06-20 19:53         ` Kai Henningsen
2005-06-18 20:55 ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-18 22:45 ` Tristan Wibberley
2005-06-20 21:47 ` Mike Stump
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2005-06-17 12:00 Paul Schlie
2005-06-17 12:09 ` Paolo Bonzini
2005-06-17 18:29   ` Paul Schlie
2005-06-17 22:09     ` Paolo Bonzini
2005-06-17 22:48     ` Diego Novillo
2005-06-18  0:20       ` Paul Schlie
2005-06-18  0:23         ` Andrew Pinski
2005-06-18  0:59           ` Paul Schlie
2005-06-18  1:10             ` Dale Johannesen
2005-06-18  4:09             ` Mike Stump
     [not found]             ` <25364524.1119085038744.JavaMail.root@dtm1eusosrv72.dtm.ops.eu.uu.net>
2005-06-18 11:47               ` Toon Moene
2005-06-18  2:02         ` Robert Dewar
2005-06-17  4:28 Paul Schlie
2005-06-17  7:03 ` Paolo Bonzini
2005-06-17 12:28 ` Diego Novillo

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