From: Xinliang David Li <davidxl@google.com>
To: Richard Guenther <richard.guenther@gmail.com>
Cc: Lawrence Crowl <crowl@google.com>,
Jakub Jelinek <jakub@redhat.com>,
Bernd Schmidt <bernds@codesourcery.com>,
Gabriel Dos Reis <gdr@integrable-solutions.net>,
David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com>,
Diego Novillo <dnovillo@google.com>, gcc <gcc@gcc.gnu.org>
Subject: Re: Switching to C++ by default in 4.8
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 16:47:00 -0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAAkRFZLdBnW-ao1wrVnnvcJqyKr8Okk7STef2NUEBW9u=2MgiA@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAFiYyc1jArwgQxGb06+x58v4KMwJZeXyU6j4YXKAAL29Ro0wEQ@mail.gmail.com>
On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 2:43 AM, Richard Guenther
<richard.guenther@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 4:24 AM, Lawrence Crowl <crowl@google.com> wrote:
>> On 4/10/12, Jakub Jelinek <jakub@redhat.com> wrote:
>>> That when stepping through code in the debugger you keep
>>> enterring/exiting these one liner inlines, most of them really
>>> should be at least by default considered just as normal statements
>>> (e.g. glibc heavily uses artificial attribute for those, still
>>> gdb doesn't hide those by default).
>>
>> You do want to step into those inline functions, except when you do.
>> In the short term, we can make the debugger behave as though they did
>> not exist. In the longer term, we really want debugging tools that
>> help C++ programmers. One way to get there is to use C++ ourselves.
>
> Fix the debugger first please.
>
>>> > The above is just quickly cooked up examples. A carefully
>>> > designed C++ based API can be self documenting and make the
>>> > client code very readable. It is hard to believe that there is
>>> > no room for improvement in GCC.
>>>
>>> Do you have examples? E.g. I haven't touched gold, because,
>>> while it is a new C++ codebase, looks completely unreadable to
>>> me, similarly libdw C++ stuff. A carefully designed C based API
>>> can be self documenting and make the code very readable as well,
>>> often more so.
>>
>> If you just look at any decently sized code base, it'll look pretty
>> much unreadable. The question is how quickly can someone who learns
>> the base vocabulary can produce reasonable modifications.
>>
>> There are many places where C++ can help substantially. For example:
>>
>> () The C++ postfix member function call syntax means that following
>> a chain of attributes is a linear read of the expression. With C
>> function call syntax, you need to read the expression inside out.
>
> It's a matter of what you are used to (consider LISP).
>
>> () C++ has both overloaded functions and member functions, so you can
>> use the same verb to talk about several different kinds of objects.
>> With C function names, we have to invent a new function name for
>> each type. Such names are longer and burden both the author and
>> the reader of the code.
>
> Agreed. Function overloading is one of the nice things that does not
> automatically make the code-base look "partial C++". Likewise
> operator overloading can make things like
>
> bit_offset = double_int_add (bit_offset,
> tree_to_double_int
> (DECL_FIELD_BIT_OFFSET (field)));
>
> be just
>
> bit_offset = bit_offset + DECL_FIELD_BIT_OFFSET (field);
>
> it still looks like C but with some C++ "magic".
>
Function overloading is both bless and curse. It makes code look
better, but may reduce debuggability.
>> () Standard C++ idioms enable mashing program components with ease.
>> The C++ standard library is based on mixing and matching algorithms
>> and data structures, via the common idiom of iterators.
>
> Sort-of agreed. Though iterator-style (and more so functor style) was never
> one of my favorite.
>
>> () The overloadable operator new means that memory can be
>> _implicitly_ allocated in the right place.
>
> Implicit allocation is bad. In a compiler you want to _see_ where you
> spend memory.
overload operator new per class allows memory management easier --
many different allocation policies (e.g pool based) can be easily
implemented.
>
>> () Constructors and destructors reduce the number of places in the
>> code where you need to do explicit memory management. Without garbage
>> collection, leaks are less frequent. With garbage collection, you
>> have much less active garbage, and can run longer between collection
>> runs. Indeed, a conservative collector would be sufficient.
>
> Time will tell.
>
>> () Constructors and destructors also neatly handle actions that
>> must occur in pairs. The classic example is mutex lock and unlock.
>> Within GCC, timevar operations need to happen in pairs.
>
> Agreed.
>
>> () Class hierarchies (even without virtual functions) can directly
>> represent type relationships, which means that a debugger dump of
>> a C++ type has little unnecessary information, as opposed to the
>> present union of structs approach with GCC trees.
>
> In GCC trees only the "base" is a union, and it is so as implementation
> detail. That gdb does not grok a 'tree' well is because gdb is stupid.
> All the information is there.
>
>> () Class hierarchies also mean that programmers can distinguish
>> in the pointer types that a function needs a decl parameter,
>> without having to say 'all trees' versus 'a very specific tree'.
>> The static type checking avoids run-time bugs.
>
> True. In a very limited set of cases. C++ is not powerful enough
> to express pointer-to-everything-that-would-be-considered-a-gimple-val.
> Maybe C++ is not the right choice after all? (I suppose C++ concepts
> would have helped here? pointer-to-tree-that-fulfils-is_gimple_val ...
> (though is_gimple_val is not be a static property).
>
>> I have written compilers in both C and C++. I much prefer the
>> latter.
>
> Did you ever try to convert an existing large C codebase to C++?
> I would not expect a very good result and rather start from scratch.
> So I don't see that we ever arrive (or want to arrive) at a pure C++-style
> GCC. Instead I expect we end up (and desire to end up) with GCC
> compiled with a C++ compiler that uses C++ features to make the
> existing style more readable and maintainable.
I like your proposal (from my reading) about keeping core APIs in C,
while the rest can be migrated (gradually).
thanks,
David
>
> Richard.
>
>> --
>> Lawrence Crowl
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2012-04-11 16:47 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 182+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2012-04-03 17:38 Diego Novillo
2012-04-03 19:39 ` Paweł Sikora
2012-04-03 20:52 ` Ian Lance Taylor
2012-04-03 21:34 ` Paweł Sikora
2012-04-20 20:14 ` Joseph S. Myers
2012-04-04 5:19 ` Basile Starynkevitch
2012-04-04 1:13 ` David Edelsohn
2012-04-04 4:00 ` Ian Lance Taylor
2012-04-04 4:42 ` Miles Bader
2012-04-04 8:32 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2012-04-04 9:06 ` Richard Guenther
2012-04-04 9:10 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2012-04-04 9:15 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2012-04-04 9:59 ` Richard Guenther
2012-04-04 10:02 ` Richard Guenther
2012-04-04 11:20 ` Diego Novillo
2012-04-04 11:38 ` Richard Guenther
2012-04-04 14:12 ` Tom Tromey
2012-04-04 14:45 ` Richard Guenther
2012-04-04 14:48 ` Richard Guenther
2012-04-14 1:35 ` Chiheng Xu
2012-04-14 9:09 ` Robert Dewar
2012-04-14 10:03 ` Chiheng Xu
2012-04-14 11:13 ` Robert Dewar
2012-04-14 11:41 ` Jonathan Wakely
2012-04-14 10:39 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2012-04-14 11:08 ` Robert Dewar
2012-04-16 9:37 ` Chiheng Xu
2012-04-16 9:38 ` Jonathan Wakely
2012-04-17 9:11 ` Robert Dewar
2012-04-05 12:40 ` Pedro Lamarão
2012-04-05 13:05 ` Richard Guenther
2012-04-05 14:21 ` Diego Novillo
2012-04-05 14:24 ` Richard Guenther
2012-04-05 14:36 ` Diego Novillo
2012-04-05 20:17 ` David Edelsohn
2012-04-05 20:36 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2012-04-06 0:11 ` David Edelsohn
2012-04-09 10:37 ` Richard Guenther
2012-04-09 15:07 ` David Edelsohn
2012-04-10 22:04 ` Pedro Lamarão
2012-04-10 22:56 ` Diego Novillo
2012-04-04 11:53 ` Bernd Schmidt
2012-04-04 12:04 ` Richard Guenther
2012-04-04 14:59 ` Diego Novillo
2012-04-04 17:54 ` Lawrence Crowl
2012-04-05 9:18 ` Richard Guenther
2012-04-05 20:07 ` Lawrence Crowl
2012-04-09 10:40 ` Richard Guenther
2012-04-09 17:56 ` Lawrence Crowl
2012-04-09 18:22 ` Jakub Jelinek
2012-04-09 18:52 ` Lawrence Crowl
2012-04-09 18:54 ` Jakub Jelinek
2012-04-09 21:15 ` Lawrence Crowl
2012-04-10 11:09 ` Richard Guenther
2012-04-11 1:36 ` Lawrence Crowl
2012-04-11 6:55 ` Jakub Jelinek
2012-04-13 23:26 ` Dave Korn
2012-04-11 9:32 ` Richard Guenther
2012-04-14 3:07 ` Chiheng Xu
2012-04-14 3:04 ` Chiheng Xu
2012-04-14 21:25 ` Lawrence Crowl
2012-04-09 23:34 ` Xinliang David Li
2012-04-10 8:46 ` Jakub Jelinek
2012-04-10 12:26 ` Michael Matz
2012-04-10 15:51 ` David Edelsohn
2012-04-10 16:05 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2012-04-10 16:13 ` Diego Novillo
2012-04-11 9:17 ` Richard Guenther
2012-04-11 16:35 ` Xinliang David Li
2012-04-10 16:12 ` Xinliang David Li
2012-04-10 16:24 ` Michael Matz
2012-04-10 17:08 ` Xinliang David Li
2012-04-10 17:29 ` Torvald Riegel
2012-04-10 18:00 ` Eric Botcazou
2012-04-10 19:56 ` Torvald Riegel
2012-04-10 21:13 ` Eric Botcazou
2012-04-10 21:29 ` Torvald Riegel
2012-04-10 23:15 ` Eric Botcazou
2012-04-11 20:57 ` Torvald Riegel
2012-04-11 21:15 ` Eric Botcazou
2012-04-11 21:43 ` Torvald Riegel
2012-04-13 23:33 ` Dave Korn
2012-04-11 9:24 ` Richard Guenther
2012-04-11 12:58 ` Torvald Riegel
2012-04-11 13:13 ` Richard Guenther
2012-04-11 13:23 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2012-04-11 14:19 ` Torvald Riegel
2012-04-11 17:24 ` Xinliang David Li
2012-04-11 18:17 ` Andrew Pinski
2012-04-11 20:02 ` Xinliang David Li
2012-04-12 5:08 ` Ian Lance Taylor
2012-04-12 6:12 ` Miles Bader
2012-04-12 6:22 ` James Dennett
2012-04-11 18:26 ` Jonathan Wakely
2012-04-11 18:41 ` Pedro Alves
2012-04-11 20:00 ` Xinliang David Li
2012-04-11 20:05 ` Jonathan Wakely
2012-04-12 5:10 ` Ian Lance Taylor
[not found] ` <12130397.ZsTVnyYbKR@pawels>
2012-04-11 13:14 ` Richard Guenther
2012-04-11 13:24 ` Bernd Schmidt
2012-04-11 17:31 ` Xinliang David Li
2012-04-11 18:37 ` Basile Starynkevitch
2012-04-11 18:52 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2012-04-11 20:14 ` Xinliang David Li
2012-04-12 15:51 ` Ludovic Courtès
2012-04-13 23:45 ` Dave Korn
2012-04-11 14:41 ` Jonathan Wakely
2012-04-11 17:13 ` Xinliang David Li
2012-04-11 19:30 ` Tobias Burnus
2012-04-11 20:44 ` Torvald Riegel
2012-04-13 23:48 ` Dave Korn
2012-04-13 23:37 ` Dave Korn
2012-04-10 17:48 ` DJ Delorie
2012-04-10 19:21 ` Dave Korn
2012-04-10 16:23 ` Xinliang David Li
2012-04-10 16:39 ` Jakub Jelinek
2012-04-10 16:43 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2012-04-10 16:47 ` Diego Novillo
2012-04-12 19:40 ` Tom Tromey
2012-04-12 19:42 ` Diego Novillo
2012-04-12 19:51 ` Tom Tromey
2012-04-10 17:37 ` Torvald Riegel
2012-04-10 21:39 ` Miles Bader
2012-04-10 22:32 ` Bernd Schmidt
2012-04-10 23:28 ` Eric Botcazou
2012-04-10 23:35 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2012-04-11 7:49 ` Eric Botcazou
2012-04-11 7:55 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2012-04-11 8:11 ` Eric Botcazou
2012-04-11 11:41 ` Jeff Law
2012-04-11 7:02 ` Jakub Jelinek
2012-04-11 7:46 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2012-04-11 7:51 ` Jakub Jelinek
2012-04-11 12:37 ` Bernd Schmidt
2012-04-11 12:47 ` Richard Guenther
2012-04-11 17:10 ` Xinliang David Li
2012-04-11 13:20 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2012-04-11 13:29 ` Jakub Jelinek
2012-04-11 13:44 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2012-04-11 14:45 ` David Edelsohn
2012-04-11 17:41 ` Xinliang David Li
2012-04-11 17:08 ` Xinliang David Li
2012-04-11 8:07 ` Eric Botcazou
2012-04-11 9:45 ` Richard Guenther
2012-04-10 17:54 ` Xinliang David Li
2012-04-11 12:44 ` Marek Polacek
2012-04-11 16:49 ` Xinliang David Li
2012-04-11 2:24 ` Lawrence Crowl
2012-04-11 9:43 ` Richard Guenther
2012-04-11 16:47 ` Xinliang David Li [this message]
2012-04-11 20:48 ` Paweł Sikora
2012-04-11 22:34 ` Lawrence Crowl
2012-04-12 9:28 ` Chiheng Xu
2012-04-12 10:30 ` Richard Guenther
2012-04-14 1:15 ` Chiheng Xu
2012-04-14 6:30 ` Chiheng Xu
2012-04-14 9:08 ` Robert Dewar
2012-04-14 10:38 ` Chiheng Xu
2012-04-14 11:06 ` Robert Dewar
2012-04-10 16:42 ` Paweł Sikora
2012-04-10 19:23 ` Dave Korn
2012-04-10 20:39 ` Andrew Pinski
2012-04-11 9:27 ` Richard Guenther
2012-04-11 1:01 ` Lawrence Crowl
2012-04-14 3:40 ` Chiheng Xu
2012-04-14 3:48 ` Chiheng Xu
2012-04-15 20:11 ` Chiheng Xu
2012-04-16 7:48 ` Duncan Sands
2012-04-16 9:23 ` Chiheng Xu
2012-04-16 18:53 ` Oleg Endo
2012-04-17 22:03 ` Chiheng Xu
2012-04-18 0:15 ` Oleg Endo
2012-04-10 11:14 ` Richard Guenther
2012-04-10 16:33 ` Xinliang David Li
2012-04-14 2:41 ` Chiheng Xu
2012-04-04 11:22 ` Diego Novillo
2012-04-04 7:07 ` Tristan Gingold
2012-04-04 13:13 ` Ian Lance Taylor
2012-04-04 13:32 ` Tristan Gingold
2012-04-04 14:37 ` Gabriel Dos Reis
2012-04-04 14:52 ` Tristan Gingold
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