From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm1-x32a.google.com (mail-wm1-x32a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32a]) by sourceware.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 263673857812 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 23:31:09 +0000 (GMT) DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 sourceware.org 263673857812 Received: by mail-wm1-x32a.google.com with SMTP id z24-20020a1cf4180000b029012463a9027fso5848349wma.5 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 16:31:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=68oBkCRjB/hJXhoGM7J1gkkffdEgG5+JPx0zcBJjjok=; b=HcdLiyUx/tL3iaZrBN8pltauX9bk2y83n+NOU8I19Z7fE0j2SxHgpmw6EyD98drO1A ckKDDaFCXC7/+iofkcgFWpkxKq/GvnU11p0ccjSSKHPaAJ0BMtnby2F3brAbLbMiBQhN +d+6ok4GE+q9QGHn/vmTZafbwaCSDaTpB/cHtVOa6v9TOXZN9Ajss0LdThymZy1h5oS3 UOlQCpqBPq/uCu4ka+sWEAh8PPwxnOMeGP4A08gQ7TAwYUEtm32/4a0W4WZbC8JME/q2 R2h69AblCRdqb7INvERO6PKDaNxO8Xd7l2dFE3e1smRd3TaymPKyLrlef6wviooNAiS5 QBpg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533IRu4uI4jTRjs6hVst77kqswO/QUEp7x+RWb+5H2jh4tTXMGba DCU1yqqZJbU++JhZyZ8bHQeDYoU93l+V5DgqdBzqVPre X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx1MPjVNRncR5GWnFOGJJSBudmtKU4ycVRwIdDE+xj87QdJxJS2YNTg9C91x23NYOIdOr/LY/2YakzCFv0lOOs= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:1f8e:: with SMTP id f136mr4103916wmf.17.1618183868187; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 16:31:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <86544bc2-f04f-3c9b-e5cd-c5dde957d8aa@in2p3.fr> <127e43d087ea286ff809403ef8ca4a70c1ccb45e.camel@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: From: Jonathan Wakely Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 00:30:57 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GCC association with the FSF To: Alexandre Oliva Cc: David Malcolm via Gcc X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00, DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, DKIM_VALID_EF, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, KAM_SHORT, RCVD_IN_ABUSEAT, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, RCVD_IN_XBL, SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_PASS, TXREP autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on server2.sourceware.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: gcc@gcc.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Gcc mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 23:31:11 -0000 On Sun, 11 Apr 2021, 23:17 Alexandre Oliva wrote: > > Now, IIRC you and others have already disclaimed those reasons. What I > don't recall seeing is the actual issue. Pardon me if I missed it; I > gather I didn't, because you wrote something to the effect that I've > sidestepped it, which tells me I don't really know what it is. If you > could point to it in the archives, or restate it, I'd appreciate it. > Here you go: https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-March/235218.html GNU seems to have become a cult of personality. FSF seems to be a sinking ship. I don't think it benefits GCC to be linked to them. I think GCC would do better without those links. The mail linked above was quoted in the first mail in this sub-thread, when Mark changed the Subject: https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-April/235340.html I also agree with the sentiments in https://wingolog.org/archives/2021/03/25/here-we-go-again I said that the only benefit I see for GCC is the DNS records for gcc.gnu.org and apart from Mark suggesting that a single copyright holder is an advantage (which I am not convinced about) the only arguments put forward have been variations on: - this is unfair, RMS is being subjected to a witch hunt (irrelevant to my question, it doesn't tell me what benefit GCC gets from being linked to GNU or FSF) - RMS ensures GCC stays honest (implying the rest of us can't be trusted or don't *really* believe in FOSS, I don't think it's true and don't see this as an advantage) - RMS doesn't get involved in GCC anyway, there's no reason to disassociate from him (still doesnt tell me what benefit there is, and ignores perception problems caused by that association) - it is not wise to disrespect the GNU Father (rambling troll who is listed as a GNU maintainer despite contributing no code, further devaluing the whole project) So no benefits that I can see. But lots of cult-like behaviour that helped me make up my mind. If the GNU project and the FSF want to keep RMS, fine, they can have him (if you check you'll find I haven't signed the GitHub letter). But they can't tell me to be happy about it and they can't tell me where to contribute my code. If the GNU project wants to pull my code from a fork, without my copyright assignment, I will consider that a small victory because it will mean they're willing to accept the contributions without owning the copyright. I'd like that. Anybody is welcome to use my code subject to its licence terms. But that doesn't mean they're welcome to own it or call it theirs. Assigning my copyright is my choice (and w.r.t what you said to Dave about "selling our services" ... a cheap shot which assumes we aren't contributing under personal assignments to the FSF, and assumes we have no choice to work elsewhere if we don't like the terms).