From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from sender4-op-o18.zoho.com (sender4-op-o18.zoho.com [136.143.188.18]) by sourceware.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8D07394D8AB for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2021 15:11:05 +0000 (GMT) DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 sourceware.org B8D07394D8AB Authentication-Results: sourceware.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=frosku.com Authentication-Results: sourceware.org; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=frosku@frosku.com ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1618413057; cv=none; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; b=eM2rvAtOWufWD3PUKPJ9v2BQrtBTQb1DjVhEEe7aFt24NWrQW8z3kTit/Kfvg43d4vWgoI35r/AAOBLsd4Zyp0fjV7G1pXNSMYr97bQsKktYIRAAz0PCrdMz7GTDAINMElykYMGnsRkATUOADdpXHPSpATpJlVqmAgRyRwPQWJg= ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; t=1618413057; h=Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:From:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Message-ID:References:Subject:To; bh=LNSiAdm0MGElx0OVp9/PyRixWHZvny0E8t2xoFwx3p4=; b=m+JdEVmd1jEJEkWC/jLpLPaLxzvtw4UwD70NHCCLEZjRQGIYm3eug64Y1nCA6o6Qn69ie27ugkZtJWYFVDj/KGN3pF7f91LyquhC5ahb9puq4M6ohf8pPvDvkehm8ECJ1W1I/AAZ/Ciz0Q9uKO8O6HRJm0Z4YY2KqcXXzR6vQtE= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.zohomail.com; dkim=pass header.i=frosku.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=frosku@frosku.com; dmarc=pass header.from= header.from= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1618413057; s=zoho; d=frosku.com; i=frosku@frosku.com; h=Mime-Version:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:Date:Message-Id:Cc:Subject:From:To:References:In-Reply-To; bh=LNSiAdm0MGElx0OVp9/PyRixWHZvny0E8t2xoFwx3p4=; b=MAsfu3OMs57z75UpczKwewg9JqYvHYEJjidJtTssg4ZZaSEJxR9lt/0JByz492jO QiLgRREgHrNEZyjRAw2B/1rmesTjC4Mz6X0OeXFHOkP2+PRNzCpN5atHMtGJC2zvRsy q0LbLYBaKwVHc7AGTwLK8LHqqyMV+bzh/3cBSz7k= Received: from localhost (90.210.249.179 [90.210.249.179]) by mx.zohomail.com with SMTPS id 161841305513175.30839534347467; Wed, 14 Apr 2021 08:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 16:10:53 +0100 Message-Id: Cc: "'gcc@gcc.gnu.org'" Subject: Re: removing toxic emailers From: "Frosku" To: "Jonathan Wakely" , "Thomas Koenig" References: <20210414131843.GA4138043@thyrsus.com> <7e126821-f66c-869a-a7bc-6c19a3c1f017@netcologne.de> In-Reply-To: X-ZohoMailClient: External X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00, DKIM_INVALID, DKIM_SIGNED, KAM_DMARC_STATUS, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL, SPAM_BODY, SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_NONE, TXREP autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on server2.sourceware.org X-BeenThere: gcc@gcc.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Gcc mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 15:11:07 -0000 On Wed Apr 14, 2021 at 3:57 PM BST, Jonathan Wakely via Gcc wrote: > On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 at 15:49, Jonathan Wakely wrote: > > > > On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 at 15:39, Thomas Koenig wrote: > > > > > > On 14.04.21 15:18, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > > > > A strong norm about off-list behavior and politics being > > > > out of bounds here is also helpful. > > > > > > That would have banned the whole discussion about the potential > > > fork from the start. > > > > No, because once again, I raised the topic of a fork because I do not > > feel that association with GNU or FSF benefits the GCC project. I did > > not say "we have to cancel them because I don't like their politics" > > (as it happens, I do like their politics, which is why I've spent two > > decades writing copyleft code for GCC, I just think they have failed > > to evolve and are sadly irrelevant today). > > And "the leader of the project had some good ideas but has terrible > leadership skills" is also not political. It's a valid criticism of a > project that we are nominally supposed to be part of. > > I don't have more "technical" reason because GNU isn't a "technical" > project, it's a political/philosophical one. The FSF even more so. > > And I don't need anybody's consensus to create a fork. Somebody > doesn't understand how free software works. Nobody said that you need a consensus to create a fork. The intent of making a proposal to a community mailing list, however, is generally to persuade and/or measure public opinion (i.e. gather consensus). In this case, creating a fork risks splitting the community and the contributors between two projects -- maybe that's a good thing, though apparently not for the gfortran developer who's saying it would kill his project. If RMS's leadership has had a tangible and measurable negative effect on GCC, that would probably have been the place to open your argument, not with media hit pieces and a mostly-debunked letter which have nothing to do with the project. Turning high-level code into machine code isn't political, it's technical. The only political aspect is free software, which unless something has massively changed in the last few days, RMS & FSF both support. >>=3D %frosku =3D { os =3D> 'gnu+linux', editor =3D> 'emacs', coffee =3D> 1= } =3D<<