From: "Frosku" <frosku@frosku.com>
To: "Ian Lance Taylor" <iant@google.com>,
"'Eric S. Raymond'" <esr@thyrsus.com>
Cc: "GCC Development" <gcc@gcc.gnu.org>
Subject: Re: removing toxic emailers
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 04:02:04 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAOTAR60Y39M.3RSHA39Z6GT5X@klugetown> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAKOQZ8xnw2j5fus+OqnWLuOr6nUhtWgkuJyehmfuUFo4k3X_Dw@mail.gmail.com>
On Fri Apr 16, 2021 at 3:47 AM BST, Ian Lance Taylor via Gcc wrote:
> This is about work. There are social aspects to free software, but
> it's not fundamentally a social activity. It's about getting
> something done, and for many people it's their job. For the sake of
> argument, I'm going to temporarily set aside all consideration of how
> people should behave in a professional setting, not because it doesn't
> matter, but just to try to clarify matters. Let's just think about
> the project.
>
> We want free software to succeed. Free software is more likely to
> succeed if more people work on it. If you are a volunteer, as many
> are, you can choose to spend your time on the project where you have
> to short-stop unwelcome advances, where you are required to deal with
> "men with poor social skills." Or you can choose to spend your time
> on the project where people treat you with respect. Which one do you
> choose?
The one where technical excellence is prioritized over social skills,
personally. If I have a choice between partaking in a project where I
have to walk on eggshells for fear of people coming with torches and
pitchforks to expel me because I was a bit too harsh in my critique or
posted an opinion on my personal blog which wasn't something they
agreed with, or a project where some of the other people are people I
wouldn't share a beer with but the technical standard is high and free
expression is generally valued, I would choose the latter.
This comes down to culture. I did not grow up in a culture where I was
taught that other people need to wrap me in cotton wool. I grew up in a
culture where arguments were judged on merit and generally as people we
accepted other peoples' rights to hold shitty opinions. For many of us,
the latter is more comfortable.
> Or perhaps you have a job that requires you to work on free software.
> Now, if you work on a project where the people act like RMS, you are
> being forced by your employer to work in a space where you face
> unwelcome advances and men who have "trouble recognizing boundaries."
> That's textbook hostile environment, and a set up for you to sue your
> employer. So your employer will never ask anyone to work on a project
> where people act like that--at least, they won't do it more than once.
I have never seen RMS act like that in a technical setting though, and
if he did, I think that would be a valid reason to remove him from the
mailing list and demand that GNU chooses someone else to represent
itself when communicating with GCC.
> In other words, having people who act in the way that you describe RMS
> as acting is actively harmful for a free software project, because it
> will discourage people from working on it.
>
> (Entirely separately, I don't get the slant of your whole e-mail. You
> can put up with RMS despite the boorish behavior you describe. Great.
> You're a saint. Why do you expect everyone else to be a saint? I
> don't meet with people who act like that, not more than once. Life is
> too short. I'll work with them if I must, but not if I don't have
> to.)
I don't think anyone needs to be a saint, but we do need to be able to
collaborate with people from different cultural, political, and personal
backgrounds to our own. Enforcing a social code which is exclusive to
the coasts of the United States on a global community seems to me to be
even more exclusionary than allowing people with poor social skills.
>>= %frosku = { os => 'gnu+linux', editor => 'emacs', coffee => 1 } =<<
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-04-16 3:02 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 160+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-04-14 12:27 Nathan Sidwell
2021-04-14 13:18 ` Eric S. Raymond
2021-04-14 13:28 ` Thomas Koenig
2021-04-14 13:38 ` Frosku
2021-04-14 13:45 ` Frosku
2021-04-14 14:49 ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-14 14:57 ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-14 15:10 ` Frosku
2021-04-14 15:08 ` Thomas Koenig
2021-04-14 15:25 ` Didier Kryn
2021-04-14 17:09 ` Jeff Law
2021-04-14 18:26 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-14 14:08 ` Nathan Sidwell
2021-04-14 15:06 ` Eric S. Raymond
2021-04-14 16:06 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-14 16:08 ` Jeff Law
2021-04-14 20:39 ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-04-14 20:49 ` Christopher Jefferson
2021-04-14 20:49 ` Paul Koning
2021-04-14 21:38 ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-04-15 0:13 ` Paul Koning
2021-04-15 0:40 ` Chris Punches
2021-04-14 22:40 ` Frosku
2021-04-14 23:19 ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-04-14 23:28 ` Frosku
2021-04-14 23:36 ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-04-14 23:39 ` Frosku
2021-04-15 0:03 ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-04-22 22:04 ` Soul Studios
2021-04-15 14:00 ` Eric S. Raymond
2021-04-15 15:17 ` Iain Sandoe
2021-04-15 15:27 ` Paul Koning
2021-04-15 19:21 ` Iain Sandoe
2021-04-15 19:45 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-15 20:02 ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-04-15 20:03 ` Iain Sandoe
2021-04-15 20:58 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-14 21:24 ` Jeff Law
2021-04-14 21:40 ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-04-14 21:57 ` Patrick McGehearty
2021-04-15 6:00 ` Thomas Koenig
2021-04-15 16:18 ` Gabriel Ravier
2021-04-14 14:23 ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-14 14:54 ` Nathan Sidwell
2021-04-14 14:57 ` Frosku
2021-04-14 15:18 ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-14 15:21 ` Frosku
2021-04-14 15:21 ` Eric S. Raymond
2021-04-14 18:27 ` Joseph Myers
2021-04-14 20:02 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-15 13:49 ` Eric S. Raymond
2021-04-15 17:31 ` David Malcolm
2021-04-15 19:05 ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-04-15 19:48 ` Gcc as callable libraries (was: removing toxic emailers) Thomas Koenig
2021-04-15 21:19 ` David Edelsohn
2021-04-15 21:31 ` David Malcolm
2021-04-15 21:51 ` David Malcolm
2021-04-15 19:27 ` removing toxic emailers Christopher Dimech
2021-04-15 20:26 ` Chris Punches
2021-04-15 20:51 ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-04-15 21:13 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-15 23:11 ` Frosku
2021-04-15 23:36 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-15 23:44 ` Frosku
2021-04-15 23:52 ` Paul Koning
2021-04-15 23:55 ` Frosku
2021-04-16 0:00 ` Joseph Myers
2021-04-15 23:52 ` Eric S. Raymond
2021-04-16 0:04 ` Frosku
2021-04-16 0:16 ` Joseph Myers
2021-04-16 0:41 ` Frosku
2021-04-16 1:04 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-16 0:48 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-17 9:09 ` Gerald Pfeifer
2021-04-17 11:56 ` Giacomo Tesio
2021-04-17 14:41 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-17 18:11 ` David Brown
2021-04-18 1:39 ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-04-18 13:10 ` Eric S. Raymond
2021-04-18 14:51 ` David Malcolm
2021-04-18 15:59 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-18 18:24 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-18 19:13 ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-18 20:10 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-19 0:54 ` Frosku
2021-04-18 19:06 ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-18 20:22 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-19 1:10 ` Frosku
2021-04-19 2:42 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-19 6:29 ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-19 6:31 ` Frosku
2021-04-19 15:06 ` Thomas Rodgers
2021-04-19 16:57 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-20 3:47 ` Frosku
2021-04-20 5:06 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-20 7:53 ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-20 14:03 ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-04-20 14:15 ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-20 14:22 ` David Brown
2021-04-20 14:30 ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-18 11:12 ` identifying toxic emailers (was: removing toxic emailers) Giacomo Tesio
2021-04-18 12:42 ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-18 13:23 ` Giacomo Tesio
2021-04-17 13:57 ` removing toxic emailers Christopher Dimech
2021-04-15 21:13 ` David Malcolm
2021-04-15 23:21 ` JeanHeyd Meneide
2021-04-15 22:09 ` Christopher Jefferson
2021-04-15 22:40 ` Jeff Law
2021-04-15 23:28 ` Eric S. Raymond
2021-04-16 0:20 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-16 2:47 ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-04-16 3:02 ` Frosku [this message]
2021-04-16 3:19 ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-04-16 4:07 ` Frosku
2021-04-16 16:28 ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-04-16 23:15 ` Frosku
2021-04-17 0:43 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-17 4:05 ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-04-17 4:08 ` Frosku
2021-04-17 5:04 ` Andrew Pinski
2021-04-17 9:08 ` Giacomo Tesio
2021-04-17 9:41 ` Frosku
2021-04-17 15:07 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-17 5:35 ` Jeff Law
[not found] ` <e324569ac358127174e1ba08337166c4d9494883.camel@silogroup.org>
2021-04-17 7:53 ` Frosku
2021-04-17 8:27 ` Aaron Gyes
2021-04-17 8:36 ` Frosku
2021-04-17 9:04 ` Aaron Gyes
2021-04-17 9:08 ` Aaron Gyes
2021-04-17 9:29 ` Frosku
2021-04-17 9:25 ` Frosku
2021-04-17 14:21 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-17 12:41 ` Liu Hao
2021-04-17 15:16 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-17 9:29 ` Giacomo Tesio
2021-04-17 9:36 ` Frosku
2021-04-16 8:54 ` Iain Sandoe
2021-04-16 10:02 ` Thomas Koenig
[not found] ` <CAJWNc-7q+t1njvEow=a6QPD4uWA7htEZn=koRBNd3ziO4y8A-g@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` <CAJWNc-6rDMvK12h8PcjrTZO5E-c4qNsh0SHQ0+kmGV71Jis67Q@mail.gmail.com>
2021-04-16 14:42 ` Iain Sandoe
2021-04-16 15:14 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-16 17:31 ` NightStrike
2021-04-16 4:09 ` Eric S. Raymond
2021-04-16 9:39 ` Kalamatee
2021-04-16 9:58 ` Frosku
2021-04-16 16:17 ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-04-14 17:32 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-14 16:52 ` Martin Jambor
2021-04-14 18:19 ` Nathan Sidwell
2021-04-14 18:30 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-14 18:32 ` Paul Koning
2021-04-14 20:12 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-15 0:10 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-15 9:18 ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-15 14:25 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-15 10:20 ` Aaron Gyes
2021-04-15 14:31 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-14 23:09 Adrian
2021-04-15 0:18 ` Soul Studios
2021-04-15 14:40 ` Eric S. Raymond
2021-04-15 22:49 ` Frosku
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