From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from sender4-op-o18.zoho.com (sender4-op-o18.zoho.com [136.143.188.18]) by sourceware.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0FAF7388C027 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2021 03:02:18 +0000 (GMT) DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 sourceware.org 0FAF7388C027 Authentication-Results: sourceware.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=frosku.com Authentication-Results: sourceware.org; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=frosku@frosku.com ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1618542129; cv=none; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; b=MVpqwUnOEMbw1czeGWhipfOohmttEw5BWQrXpn4h00BIkW8fabq3uPgX5I1+ckqpaavaH+GOIe3RY/ALZQkfuTtJ3cZk2ywn4l4Ii8/YY1ZRT+7245X59OF3r2Vwv5D+y+kCgX0CR4NvEdhAHzuKhWv/lcRHZbL8wvuvLPt+QyY= ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; t=1618542129; h=Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:From:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Message-ID:References:Subject:To; bh=IC6geyAUo3mC2PEsv2t6clKgRCszz+dMXDUyds6Hq7Y=; b=aBglaWLad0OtWvQn7BFVsViAv/EC2H8CUDS+M9VyPvcKmYtVJ81kQ/nR/R4TrwhdapbuUt3+/Ge9baT3HWGjsxGG3pLjHMiEIGoh4R1sIpdwlbwBgSSAplknVYqc2CyS5iCyu/o/U3UkSff8z5zsmHHi8nFSBUSBlPJ8IATv+Mc= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.zohomail.com; dkim=pass header.i=frosku.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=frosku@frosku.com; dmarc=pass header.from= header.from= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1618542129; s=zoho; d=frosku.com; i=frosku@frosku.com; h=Mime-Version:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:Date:Message-Id:Cc:Subject:From:To:References:In-Reply-To; bh=IC6geyAUo3mC2PEsv2t6clKgRCszz+dMXDUyds6Hq7Y=; b=TZi61j00L1FHO93c3CZoWBnh6iHRkl3orKPhivQng0Pc5OJ1BS0rVjd9ncm8j0Lm ZCDCTU3B48NNOVKjFjYb4bJhIBrX/gp/hXNWmqNmUFgaUp3Sau0torTa9f2lXDOeA6v b3S00BHfSZEDSNB7nwFKZh9P9ZMY7MQjjZRVDyiI= Received: from localhost (90.210.249.179 [90.210.249.179]) by mx.zohomail.com with SMTPS id 1618542126315907.1239502929263; Thu, 15 Apr 2021 20:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 04:02:04 +0100 Message-Id: Cc: "GCC Development" Subject: Re: removing toxic emailers From: "Frosku" To: "Ian Lance Taylor" , "'Eric S. Raymond'" References: <20210414131843.GA4138043@thyrsus.com> <20210414142310.98E0833DD0@vlsi1.gnat.com> <20210414152112.GD4138043@thyrsus.com> <20210415134907.GA51340@thyrsus.com> <96db05d78cb1f829d0b3ce3026ac15a335fffd41.camel@redhat.com> <20210415232851.GA67555@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: X-ZohoMailClient: External X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3486.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40, DKIM_INVALID, DKIM_SIGNED, KAM_DMARC_STATUS, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL, SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_NONE, TXREP autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on server2.sourceware.org X-BeenThere: gcc@gcc.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Gcc mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 03:02:22 -0000 On Fri Apr 16, 2021 at 3:47 AM BST, Ian Lance Taylor via Gcc wrote: > This is about work. There are social aspects to free software, but > it's not fundamentally a social activity. It's about getting > something done, and for many people it's their job. For the sake of > argument, I'm going to temporarily set aside all consideration of how > people should behave in a professional setting, not because it doesn't > matter, but just to try to clarify matters. Let's just think about > the project. > > We want free software to succeed. Free software is more likely to > succeed if more people work on it. If you are a volunteer, as many > are, you can choose to spend your time on the project where you have > to short-stop unwelcome advances, where you are required to deal with > "men with poor social skills." Or you can choose to spend your time > on the project where people treat you with respect. Which one do you > choose? The one where technical excellence is prioritized over social skills, personally. If I have a choice between partaking in a project where I have to walk on eggshells for fear of people coming with torches and pitchforks to expel me because I was a bit too harsh in my critique or posted an opinion on my personal blog which wasn't something they agreed with, or a project where some of the other people are people I wouldn't share a beer with but the technical standard is high and free expression is generally valued, I would choose the latter. This comes down to culture. I did not grow up in a culture where I was taught that other people need to wrap me in cotton wool. I grew up in a culture where arguments were judged on merit and generally as people we accepted other peoples' rights to hold shitty opinions. For many of us, the latter is more comfortable. > Or perhaps you have a job that requires you to work on free software. > Now, if you work on a project where the people act like RMS, you are > being forced by your employer to work in a space where you face > unwelcome advances and men who have "trouble recognizing boundaries." > That's textbook hostile environment, and a set up for you to sue your > employer. So your employer will never ask anyone to work on a project > where people act like that--at least, they won't do it more than once. I have never seen RMS act like that in a technical setting though, and if he did, I think that would be a valid reason to remove him from the mailing list and demand that GNU chooses someone else to represent itself when communicating with GCC. > In other words, having people who act in the way that you describe RMS > as acting is actively harmful for a free software project, because it > will discourage people from working on it. > > (Entirely separately, I don't get the slant of your whole e-mail. You > can put up with RMS despite the boorish behavior you describe. Great. > You're a saint. Why do you expect everyone else to be a saint? I > don't meet with people who act like that, not more than once. Life is > too short. I'll work with them if I must, but not if I don't have > to.) I don't think anyone needs to be a saint, but we do need to be able to collaborate with people from different cultural, political, and personal backgrounds to our own. Enforcing a social code which is exclusive to the coasts of the United States on a global community seems to me to be even more exclusionary than allowing people with poor social skills. >>=3D %frosku =3D { os =3D> 'gnu+linux', editor =3D> 'emacs', coffee =3D> 1= } =3D<<