From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from sender4-op-o18.zoho.com (sender4-op-o18.zoho.com [136.143.188.18]) by sourceware.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 001553857C7E for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2021 09:58:14 +0000 (GMT) DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 sourceware.org 001553857C7E Authentication-Results: sourceware.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=frosku.com Authentication-Results: sourceware.org; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=frosku@frosku.com ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1618567087; cv=none; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; b=PP1fmHyqp55lnblacBXO7nLGIAs6uy+nmkzDvuiO1tBSGlI2VjYGsyAfCtGoSkk9PlnzlJQaIFBSfbF90oSINvQ/eT5FCMPf4eIoMpa38y21xlFny43tBX7MXDMdVdU91GMQrYbAVXDKmCda5pPMikSjKnlqCDpPLzHwRSr3+1o= ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; t=1618567087; h=Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Date:From:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Message-ID:References:Subject:To; bh=DHY49S0dG5+2ZgFHNx4iLnMkvieBgYUG+Caig2aoPJg=; b=JtUx9o+ekOpZB2UzTuwpP9/AVrFir+B7JzRiC5dW1uF7DxAb2Lq3H44ZbZB8+9CNPDIC8slc9rqgIp4LxZgrN+085v3XBpBWab/yRd2HOgceqDhprEVJLmJjcEDtdkbmFZNAgQLZ/2faZUkQKgTXiCWG3MgZI1MPYa0DGcoEt5Y= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.zohomail.com; dkim=pass header.i=frosku.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=frosku@frosku.com; dmarc=pass header.from= header.from= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1618567087; s=zoho; d=frosku.com; i=frosku@frosku.com; h=Mime-Version:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:Date:Message-Id:Subject:From:To:Cc:References:In-Reply-To; bh=DHY49S0dG5+2ZgFHNx4iLnMkvieBgYUG+Caig2aoPJg=; b=coSg3fl83pC9i6z1ImvWEvhg+cWNHp1RFzxBc466+I5Q3Kr2/F6N+UbMO82BLaMv RXGgsodrG09m/gFat3WbL4sB6u9Jksxvqy5v7vOIa4efCHEa0WmCb+zlh0rRLs3Xmw+ nvPAXCP7QuudvtF10MOK5oZg1uHRbc3nHSWg3FYA= Received: from localhost (90.210.249.179 [90.210.249.179]) by mx.zohomail.com with SMTPS id 16185670867501009.7125029457706; Fri, 16 Apr 2021 02:58:06 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 10:58:04 +0100 Message-Id: Subject: Re: removing toxic emailers From: "Frosku" To: "Kalamatee" , , References: <20210414131843.GA4138043@thyrsus.com> <20210414142310.98E0833DD0@vlsi1.gnat.com> <20210414152112.GD4138043@thyrsus.com> <20210415134907.GA51340@thyrsus.com> <96db05d78cb1f829d0b3ce3026ac15a335fffd41.camel@redhat.com> <20210415232851.GA67555@thyrsus.com> <20210416040926.GB73338@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: X-ZohoMailClient: External X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3488.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00, DKIM_INVALID, DKIM_SIGNED, KAM_DMARC_STATUS, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL, SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_NONE, TXREP autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on server2.sourceware.org X-BeenThere: gcc@gcc.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Gcc mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 09:58:17 -0000 On Fri Apr 16, 2021 at 10:39 AM BST, Kalamatee via Gcc wrote: > On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 at 05:59, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > > > Ian Lance Taylor : > > > Patronizing or infantilizing anybody doesn't come into this at all. > > > > I am not even *remotely* persuaded of this. This whole attitude that i= f > > a woman is ever exposed to a man with less than perfect American > > upper-middle-class manners it's a calamity requiring intervention > > and mass shunning, that *reeks* of infantilizing women. > > > > > We want free software to succeed. Free software is more likely to > > > succeed if more people work on it. If you are a volunteer, as many > > > are, you can choose to spend your time on the project where you have > > > to short-stop unwelcome advances, where you are required to deal with > > > "men with poor social skills." Or you can choose to spend your time > > > on the project where people treat you with respect. Which one do you > > > choose? > > > > The one where your expected satisfaction is higher, with boorishness > > from autistic males factored in as one of the overheads. Don't try to > > tell me that's a deal-killer, I've known too many women who would > > laugh at you for that assumption. > > > > > Or perhaps you have a job that requires you to work on free software. > > > Now, if you work on a project where the people act like RMS, you are > > > being forced by your employer to work in a space where you face > > > unwelcome advances and men who have "trouble recognizing boundaries." > > > That's textbook hostile environment, and a set up for you to sue your > > > employer. So your employer will never ask anyone to work on a projec= t > > > where people act like that--at least, they won't do it more than once= . > > > > Here's what happens in the real world (and I'm not speculating, I was > > a BoD member of a tech startup at one time, stuff like this came up). > > You say "X is being a jerk - can I work on something else?" Your > > employer, rightly terrified of the next step, is not going to "force" > > you to do a damn thing. He's going to bend over backwards to > > accommodate you. > > > > > (Entirely separately, I don't get the slant of your whole e-mail. Yo= u > > > can put up with RMS despite the boorish behavior you describe. Great= . > > > You're a saint. Why do you expect everyone else to be a saint? > > > > I'm no saint, I'm merely an adult who takes responsibility for my own > > choices when dealing with people who have minimal-brain-damage > > syndromes. OK, I have probably acquired a bit more tolerance for > > their quirks than average from long experience, but I don't believe I'm > > an extreme outlier that way. > > > > What I am pushing for is for everyone to recognize that *women are > > adults* - they have their own agency and are in general perfectly > > capable of treating an RMS-class jerk as at worst a minor annoyance. > > > > Behaving as though he's some sort of icky monster who should be > > shunned by all right-thinking people and taints everything he touches > > is ... just unbelievably disconnected from reality. Bizarre > > neo-Puritan virtue signaling of no help to anyone. > > > > If I needed more evidence that many Americans lead pampered, > > cossetted, hyper-insulated lives that require them to make up their > > own drama, this whole flap would be it. > > > > > Im glad there are people like you on the project Eric, because you > express > exactly what a lot of people see - even if a minority of people chose to > ignore it, > > To a lot of "non americans", the events on here appear as nothing more > than > a power grab by a small minority of developers, abusing their position > and > american corporate ideologies to enact change, ignoring any one who > dares > question or disagree unless they fit into a clique they have built (and > want to maintain by ostracizing people they deem unworthy), > brandishing them jerks, trolls, toxic and other childish names. Im glad > there are a few devs that can see this, but it feels like they are > stepping > on egg shells (despite the rhetoric about how well the people in said > clique can communicate on technical matters). A lot of Americans see it too, just many are petrified of speaking out against this new illiberal orthodoxy. >>=3D %frosku =3D { os =3D> 'gnu+linux', editor =3D> 'emacs', coffee =3D> 1= } =3D<<