From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-vs1-xe35.google.com (mail-vs1-xe35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e35]) by sourceware.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A25A3858D39 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2022 23:09:27 +0000 (GMT) DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.4.1 sourceware.org 5A25A3858D39 Received: by mail-vs1-xe35.google.com with SMTP id 185so2221979vsi.2 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2022 16:09:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qvsjwjLXSmFvq1TLEhA/ZWCTzrn6PoyOScPVybZbCXY=; b=jZWDZgxZJT0UE7/Ect7GPTzWZPQJ1MMrWIZ63mnnWroRf74oNmbDNjg0xYMjIUBzG5 gRcP4QUGZKafRb6JJirGk7S/ZveDIPM/+HWo7ehzyAGeBSDWmYoBdyGGLrfEVacfH+2h if5dc/oH37eiyZJ7+vdeXCz7PlLnWSq8rDTVQPN746Z0iedeaGfLMuhBQWeeYuPNZ/wk 4HXDPa0WbJiQZm1/AnqFIykRNfhBj82y91033wRyXJIHA+aGOnGsRpyXaxecCNOg3+La e/ZPaLzNwnYpFIKToYF1fegL6ixHLNVaSY/yJ2F+Q2Ne1jOkgfa0R6cGmITAh8WIwNVi CzcQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora8ztJC/O5eZYoyf48JmdT7Xrxd7K1eeHKWwDz5eX/fPqO6NB77c mTC+p04MlY5ctdO4CH9uuQkVQU1+YD7FghwvK2M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1vWS/sy7aZKw4vG7bPQlpbpbRHb4OuDQsstNH5vrEAzff/VpeLtKAKb8loFDGhKEeF3ImzwUpVKIMWnueDuB4s= X-Received: by 2002:a67:b749:0:b0:357:83ba:40dc with SMTP id l9-20020a67b749000000b0035783ba40dcmr10492154vsh.74.1658185766252; Mon, 18 Jul 2022 16:09:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87wncaw9ty.fsf@oldenburg.str.redhat.com> <8F5B23E9-BC92-4BFC-A829-AF818CA2C170@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: lkcl Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2022 00:09:13 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: rust non-free-compatible trademark To: David Malcolm Cc: Florian Weimer , lkcl via Gcc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50, DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, DKIM_VALID_EF, FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_PASS, TXREP autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.6 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.6 (2021-04-09) on server2.sourceware.org X-BeenThere: gcc@gcc.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Gcc mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2022 23:09:29 -0000 On Mon, Jul 18, 2022 at 10:01 PM David Malcolm wrote: > Luke: you appear to me to be the one who is telling people what patches > they can and cannot apply, and it's pissing me off. 1) please don't you dare put words into my mouth that i did not state. first and only warning. 2) i'm sorry you're annoyed. Asperger's interactions with neuro-typical individuals who are not used to the same typically do not go well: this conversation has all the hallmarks i'm used to being subjected to (and, frankly, shouldn't have to put up with). as you can probably imagine in 25 years it's pretty tiresome for me to be constantly subjected to abuse based solely on misunderstandings that, with the tiniest bit of tolerance, could easily have been avoided. 3) as you work for redhat, you should be able to speak to HR and request Diversity training for how to interact with people with Asperger's. [or, at least, how to recognise them and not get pissed off by how they speak]. given that it was "neurodiversity month" only a few weeks ago you should be able to find references on linkedin. > Are you a lawyer? If so please consider volunteering your time to the > GCC Steering Committee *privately*. If not, it seems to me to be a > terrible idea to try to get the developers to pontificate in public > about alleged legal issues with the project, their implications, and > supposed workarounds. i'm a Libre Ethical Technology Specialist. i expect a project such as gcc to be held accountable publicly for its decisions and actions, and to act responsibly. this conversation will be watched by a hell of a lot of people and if there are private conversations on this topic being held behind closed doors then how the hell can anyone have any confidence and trust in gcc? i'm publicly and fully accountable in the FOSS projects that *i* manage, including the full financial records, and given how massively high-profile gcc is, i expect it to be held publicly accountable to a far greater degree. > The gcc rust frontend is an ambitious one with lots of technical > challenges, but which has the potential to make the GCC and Rust > development communities stronger; or, if done incorrectly, screw absolutely everyone who ever tries to distribute gcc or attempt to contribute to it. > this discussion seems to me to be a > pointless attempt to pick a fight between the two. wrong, sorry. read again the parts where i recommend a workable solution that is based on a past real-world case: the ADA Certification Mark. here is the link again: http://archive.adaic.com/pol-hist/policy/trademrk.txt what you *might* be referring to is that i have absolutely no qualms at all about calling out the Mozilla Foundation's Rust Trademark as, frankly, "bloody stupid". given their past handling of iceweasel this should be no surprise to anyone familiar with that fiasco. i have absolutely no problem with the Python Software Foundation Trademark because the PSF Trademark does not attempt such a kak-handed, heavy-handed and draconian imposition. i mean, for god's sake, the attempt to hide the efforts to demand that people contact them if they perform any kind of "unauthorised" patches is hidden in a document entitled "Logo and Media Policy Guide". this in no way should inspire confidence! please understand: if they *actually* did a decent job and *actually* listened by converting the Trademark to a proper Certification Mark (just as ADA did in 1987), i would be the first person to very loudly praise them for such an astoundingly forward-thinking strategic move to protect the Rust Language from harm in a very natural and logical way. from me you will always get the blunt truth as i see it. no gloves, no sugar-coating. no diplomacy, no lying by omission. it's... not popular, but serves an extremely valuable purpose: cuts through a lot of crap on topics that people were either not aware of or were deeply uncomfortable bringing up, often for years. you might not feel comfortable *admitting* that (certainly not publicly) but after some [considerable] time and calm and considered investigation, and once your feathers have de-ruffled, you'll appreciate what i've done. l.