* m68k MacOS target support? @ 2000-09-09 12:33 Michael Sokolov 2000-09-11 20:47 ` Stan Shebs 0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: Michael Sokolov @ 2000-09-09 12:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: binutils, gcc Hi there, As I'm doing some major work on the m68k target in the Cygnus toolchain and going to maintain it (it's currently unmaintained), I wanted to survey the state of target support for one rather major m68k system: MacOS. I don't see any in the mainline public tree. In ftp.cygnus.com:/pub/mac I see an old (1996) port of the toolchain to MPW. It mentions an m68k MacOS compiler, but doesn't contain one. I have also heard from multiple sources that Stan Shebs of Apple has developed and might still be maintaining an m68k MacOS compiler. Stan, are you reading this? Would you please fill me in on the state of various port(s) for the m68k MacOS target? Is there or has there ever been more than one? Is yours related to the one in ftp.cygnus.com:/pub/mac or not? What is the current status of the various port(s) (maintained, unmaintained, etc)? Where can I find the sources? Are you or is anyone else planning on integrating any m68k MacOS target support into the mainline Cygnus toolchain? TIA for filling me in on this. (And yes, I'm fully aware of m68k MacOS' peculiarities with respect to executable code living in code resources instead of COFF/ELF executables, A5- based data access, segmentation, etc. One reason I'm so interested in this is that I'm integrating into the mainline Cygnus toolchain target support for PalmOS, another m68k system with some very similar characteristics.) -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: m68k MacOS target support? 2000-09-09 12:33 m68k MacOS target support? Michael Sokolov @ 2000-09-11 20:47 ` Stan Shebs 2000-09-11 20:56 ` Michael Meissner 2000-09-12 9:52 ` David Huggins-Daines 0 siblings, 2 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: Stan Shebs @ 2000-09-11 20:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Michael Sokolov; +Cc: binutils, gcc Michael Sokolov wrote: > > As I'm doing some major work on the m68k target in the Cygnus toolchain and > going to maintain it (it's currently unmaintained), I wanted to survey the > state of target support for one rather major m68k system: MacOS. I don't see > any in the mainline public tree. In ftp.cygnus.com:/pub/mac I see an old (1996) > port of the toolchain to MPW. It mentions an m68k MacOS compiler, but doesn't > contain one. I have also heard from multiple sources that Stan Shebs of Apple > has developed and might still be maintaining an m68k MacOS compiler. Yes; no. :-) > Stan, are you reading this? Would you please fill me in on the state of various > port(s) for the m68k MacOS target? Is there or has there ever been more than > one? Is yours related to the one in ftp.cygnus.com:/pub/mac or not? What is the > current status of the various port(s) (maintained, unmaintained, etc)? Where > can I find the sources? Are you or is anyone else planning on integrating any > m68k MacOS target support into the mainline Cygnus toolchain? TIA for filling > me in on this. Ah, brings back memories. I'll answer publicly, just to put some of the history on the record and maybe dispel a few myths. I did three MacOS ports of GCC in all. The first was in 1989, to 1.37, and was originally intended as a control case to compare with a port of GCC to an experimental target (that project died quietly later). When, as part of benchmarking, we found that GCC was producing code 10-20% better than Apple's own compiler, mgmt got real interested and had me proceed to turn it into a complete port, bootstrapping and all. This ran under MPW, which is Apple's vaguely Unix-like development environment for the Mac, and its output went into the MPW assembler. Being new to GNU, and not really thinking ahead, I hacked the wazoo out of the 1.37 sources. The assembler provided handling for the Mac ABI, such as A5-relative references, essentially filling in the "(a5)" for what looked like global variables and functions, and since GCC's PIC was in a primitive state, I relied on the assembler. The assembler, however, also had a notion of modules that tied into jump tables and the Mac's code segment architecture (remember that the Mac OS had been mostly written in m68k assembly only a few years earlier), and it actually required imports and exports of each symbol from each function and initialized block of data! So I had to make some really horrendous hacks to final.c and varasm.c in order to get all this to work. I was pretty much on my own too, because at the time the FSF was participating in the LPF boycott against Apple (ironic that Apple now has a corporate commitment to GCC as its main compiler for OS X...). I did talk to John Gilmore at one point about having Cygnus do some of the work - interestingly, it would have been just a few months after Cygnus was founded - but I didn't have any money to pay for it, so that didn't go anywhere. Eventually this port made it out to ftp sites (after some internal debate settled by executive decision), and it enjoyed a small amount of popularity both at Apple and externally. A couple years later, Jeff Holcomb (who's now at RH), Brent Pease, and I worked on moving all the patches to 2.3.3. As you might imagine, the many gratuitous changes made this was a nasty job, and the result never seemed quite as solid as the original port. During 1993, it was actually in the running to be the compiler for building what became MacOS 7.5, but that idea died due to internecine politics and I went to Cygnus to continue with my GNU enthusiasm fulltime. 1993 was also when I presented the "talking compiler" at MacHack, basically just MPW GCC modified to play pre-recorded sounds by looking up identifiers and/or error messages in a user-specified table. It was great fun to have it say "Oooh pizza" for any function with "pizza" in its name, or to sing "You are an idiot" for syntax errors... Anyway, among my other activities at Cygnus (such as GDB maintenance), in late 1993 I started a new port that was to be "done right". This was initially for MPW-hosted cross-compilation - at that time Cygnus would do almost anything for money :-) - and later, ca 1995, for PowerMac native (this was the contract that also gave us the (in?)famous Haifa scheduler). This port strategy started out with hacked clones of the Unix makefiles, but evolved into a complicated script-and-sed-based mechanism to edit Unix makefiles; thus the mpw-* files you see scattered around GNU sources today. These ports concentrated almost all of the MPW and Mac knowledge into separate files, partly to simplify maintenance and partly to accommodate the FSF boycott, which didn't end until 1995 or 1996. The native Powermac port eventually was finished in late 1996, and put up for ftp - just a few weeks before Apple announced it was dropping MPW! :-( (They revived it later though.) I never did an m68k version of this port, although I did sketch out a not-using-MPW plan at one point, nor did the GCC changes get merged into egcs, because I had lost interest by then and nobody else took it up - between the overwhelming popularity of Metrowerks and Apple's declining market share, MPW GCC users became almost nonexistent. All three of these versions used to be at Cygnus' ftp site, presumably they're still there, and you can get the talking compiler on MacHack's CD (www.machack.com). Alas, none of them is of much use for porting current GCC to m68k MacOS, since they assume MPW, and now-unsupported versions at that. Most of the changes are highly MPW-specific anyway, with the exception of Pascal string (\p) and four-char-constants ('oapp') support in the frontend. So given that m68k Macs are slowly fading into the sunset, and that the PalmOS GCC port has little in common with the old Mac ports, I'd say it's not worth spending much time worrying about m68k Mac support in current GCC. Stan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: m68k MacOS target support? 2000-09-11 20:47 ` Stan Shebs @ 2000-09-11 20:56 ` Michael Meissner 2000-09-11 21:33 ` Mark Mitchell 2000-09-12 9:52 ` David Huggins-Daines 1 sibling, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: Michael Meissner @ 2000-09-11 20:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stan Shebs; +Cc: Michael Sokolov, binutils, gcc On Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 08:47:09PM -0700, Stan Shebs wrote: > So given that m68k Macs are slowly fading into the sunset, and that > the PalmOS GCC port has little in common with the old Mac ports, I'd say > it's not worth spending much time worrying about m68k Mac support in > current GCC. You never know. There is after all, somebody porting GCC to the Dec-10 architecture, something like 10-15 years after DEC stopped making them (I don't recall when the plug was pulled). I seem to recall discussion about the VAX and GCC working on pristine BSD 4.3 in the last 2 months. Unfortunately, the AS400 effort seems to be running into a wall. -- Michael Meissner, Red Hat, Inc. PMB 198, 174 Littleton Road #3, Westford, Massachusetts 01886, USA Work: meissner@redhat.com phone: +1 978-486-9304 Non-work: meissner@spectacle-pond.org fax: +1 978-692-4482 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: m68k MacOS target support? 2000-09-11 20:56 ` Michael Meissner @ 2000-09-11 21:33 ` Mark Mitchell 2000-09-12 0:02 ` lars brinkhoff 2000-09-12 0:03 ` m68k MacOS target support? lars brinkhoff 0 siblings, 2 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: Mark Mitchell @ 2000-09-11 21:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: meissner; +Cc: shebs, msokolov, binutils, gcc >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Meissner <meissner@cygnus.com> writes: Michael> You never know. There is after all, somebody porting GCC Michael> to the Dec-10 architecture, something like 10-15 years Michael> after DEC stopped making them (I don't recall when the Michael> plug was pulled). I seem to recall discussion about the Michael> VAX and GCC working on pristine BSD 4.3 in the last 2 Michael> months. Unfortunately, the AS400 effort seems to be Michael> running into a wall. For the record, I don't think that we (as mainline GCC developers) should worry about these kinds of platforms, and I think Stan's comments show a very mature mode of thinking towards 68K Macs. There is a large burden in dragging around old ports, trying to make sure Makefiles work there, and so forth. If someone else wants to keep GCC working on a Dec-10, or a PDP-11, or an SV3 system, or whatever that's just great -- but I don't think we should worry about those systems when maintaining GCC. My two cents, -- Mark Mitchell mark@codesourcery.com CodeSourcery, LLC http://www.codesourcery.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: m68k MacOS target support? 2000-09-11 21:33 ` Mark Mitchell @ 2000-09-12 0:02 ` lars brinkhoff 2000-09-12 0:15 ` Mark Mitchell ` (2 more replies) 2000-09-12 0:03 ` m68k MacOS target support? lars brinkhoff 1 sibling, 3 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: lars brinkhoff @ 2000-09-12 0:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mark Mitchell; +Cc: meissner Mark Mitchell <mark@codesourcery.com> writes: > >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Meissner <meissner@cygnus.com> writes: > Michael> You never know. There is after all, somebody porting GCC > Michael> to the Dec-10 architecture, something like 10-15 years > Michael> after DEC stopped making them (I don't recall when the > Michael> plug was pulled). I seem to recall discussion about the > Michael> VAX and GCC working on pristine BSD 4.3 in the last 2 > Michael> months. Unfortunately, the AS400 effort seems to be > Michael> running into a wall. > > For the record, I don't think that we (as mainline GCC developers) > should worry about these kinds of platforms, and I think Stan's > comments show a very mature mode of thinking towards 68K Macs. There > is a large burden in dragging around old ports, trying to make sure > Makefiles work there, and so forth. If someone else wants to keep GCC > working on a Dec-10, or a PDP-11, or an SV3 system, or whatever that's > just great -- but I don't think we should worry about those systems > when maintaining GCC. That's very interesting, because I'd like to know if the GCC maintainers are interested in the changes I would have to make to GCC for it to support the different PDP-10 pointer formats. It's my intention that the changes should be as non-intrusive as possible and make GCC easier to port to other architectures with unsusual pointer formats. My employer may be willing to sponsor this if it's an improvement of GCC. But if the GCC maintainers are not interested in this, I'd rather just make the changes necessary for PDP-10 without considering other architectures. The same goes for binutils and GDB, by the way. I certainly don't expect the maintainers to actively maintain the PDP-10 back end, or even care much if it breaks. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: m68k MacOS target support? 2000-09-12 0:02 ` lars brinkhoff @ 2000-09-12 0:15 ` Mark Mitchell 2000-09-12 3:26 ` lars brinkhoff ` (2 more replies) 2000-09-12 7:32 ` Jeffrey A Law 2000-09-12 11:11 ` PDP10 support (was Re: m68k MacOS target support?) Joe Buck 2 siblings, 3 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: Mark Mitchell @ 2000-09-12 0:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: lars; +Cc: meissner >>>>> "lars" == lars brinkhoff <lars@nocrew.org> writes: lars> That's very interesting, because I'd like to know if the GCC lars> maintainers are interested in the changes I would have to lars> make to GCC for it to support the different PDP-10 pointer lars> formats. I can only speak for me; I only get one vote on the SC, just like everybody else. And I've been in the minority more than once before! So, you shouldn't take what I say as necessarily reprentative. lars> It's my intention that the changes should be as lars> non-intrusive as possible and make GCC easier to port to lars> other architectures with unsusual pointer formats. That sounds helpful. Those kind of generic changes are probably welcome -- especially if they don't add much maintenance overhead, and if there are other architectures that have similarly unusual pointer formats. (I don't know whether there are such beasts or not, honestly). lars> interested in this, I'd rather just make the changes lars> necessary for PDP-10 without considering other lars> architectures. Yes, I can see why you could use some guidance from us. Probably we should ask other members of the SC to chime in with their opinions. lars> I certainly don't expect the maintainers to actively lars> maintain the PDP-10 back end, or even care much if it lars> breaks. :-) What's funny about these kinds of things is how hard it is to undo anything. Whenever I propose getting rid of a "feature" in GCC, I find that people now rely on that feature, or that at least many people are afraid people rely on that feature. Support for a platform is a feature. Once support is in GCC, it will probably be somewhat difficult to remove that support. If it were up to me, I would ask the same questions any commercial enterprise would ask before including a port to the PDP-10, or any other architecture. How large is the likely userbase? What are the likely costs? What are the long-term maintenance costs? Does this change fit with the overall product strategy? I think that as maintainers we have too great a tendency to say "well, that patch doesn't break anything, let's put it in" without asking those other questions, and especially without weighing the long-term costs as heavily as we should. That's just my take, of course; I'm sure others would disagree. The beauty of free software, of course, is that even if the answers to those questions were negative, you would still have the freedom to do what you want to do, and to make your work available to others. That wasn't a very helpful answer, was it? I hope that others will comment on your questions. -- Mark Mitchell mark@codesourcery.com CodeSourcery, LLC http://www.codesourcery.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: m68k MacOS target support? 2000-09-12 0:15 ` Mark Mitchell @ 2000-09-12 3:26 ` lars brinkhoff 2000-09-12 7:23 ` Mark Mitchell 2000-09-12 11:16 ` Joe Buck 2000-09-12 11:48 ` Toon Moene 2 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: lars brinkhoff @ 2000-09-12 3:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mark Mitchell; +Cc: meissner, binutils, gcc Mark Mitchell <mark@codesourcery.com> writes: > >>>>> "lars" == lars brinkhoff <lars@nocrew.org> writes: > lars> That's very interesting, because I'd like to know if the GCC > lars> maintainers are interested in the changes I would have to > lars> make to GCC for it to support the different PDP-10 pointer > lars> formats. > I can only speak for me; I only get one vote on the SC, just like > everybody else. And I've been in the minority more than once before! > So, you shouldn't take what I say as necessarily reprentative. Is there something I can do to get the attention of the SC? Other than posting these letters, of course. > lars> It's my intention that the changes should be as > lars> non-intrusive as possible and make GCC easier to port to > lars> other architectures with unsusual pointer formats. > That sounds helpful. Those kind of generic changes are probably > welcome -- especially if they don't add much maintenance overhead, and > if there are other architectures that have similarly unusual pointer > formats. (I don't know whether there are such beasts or not, > honestly). There are, such as some DSPs, but they seem rare. In general, I think all word-addressed machines belong to this group, for example the ADI 210xx SHARC DSP. The bit-addressed TMS34010 also doesn't fit within GCC's model of pointers. Both have much-hacked GCC ports that hopefully would have benefitted from more generic pointer handling. > What's funny about these kinds of things is how hard it is to undo > anything. Whenever I propose getting rid of a "feature" in GCC, I > find that people now rely on that feature, or that at least many > people are afraid people rely on that feature. Support for a platform > is a feature. Once support is in GCC, it will probably be somewhat > difficult to remove that support. If PDP-10 support in GCC would get to the same level as support for the PDP-11, I'd be quite happy. And the PDP-11 back end is not looked after very much, it seems. > If it were up to me, I would ask the same questions any commercial > enterprise would ask before including a port to the PDP-10, or any > other architecture. How large is the likely userbase? I'd have to admit the PDP-10 userbase is most likely miniscule. > What are the likely costs? What are the long-term maintenance > costs? Some research would be needed to answer those questions. And before making that research, I'd like to know if there's at least some chance of the changes being included in GCC. > The beauty of free software, of course, is that even if the answers to > those questions were negative, you would still have the freedom to do > what you want to do, and to make your work available to others. The question is whether to go ahead and make generic changes suitable for inclusion in GCC, or to just make the minimal changes needed to support the PDP-10 and maintain that as a separate patch. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: m68k MacOS target support? 2000-09-12 3:26 ` lars brinkhoff @ 2000-09-12 7:23 ` Mark Mitchell 0 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: Mark Mitchell @ 2000-09-12 7:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: lars; +Cc: meissner, binutils, gcc >>>>> "lars" == lars brinkhoff <lars@nocrew.org> writes: >> I can only speak for me; I only get one vote on the SC, just >> like everybody else. And I've been in the minority more than >> once before! So, you shouldn't take what I say as necessarily >> reprentative. lars> Is there something I can do to get the attention of the SC? lars> Other than posting these letters, of course. :-) I suspect that most of the SC reads this list. From the web site: At the moment the steering committee has 14 members. The best place to reach them is the gcc mailinglist. -- Mark Mitchell mark@codesourcery.com CodeSourcery, LLC http://www.codesourcery.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: m68k MacOS target support? 2000-09-12 0:15 ` Mark Mitchell 2000-09-12 3:26 ` lars brinkhoff @ 2000-09-12 11:16 ` Joe Buck 2000-09-12 11:22 ` Bernd Schmidt 2000-09-12 13:59 ` Stan Shebs 2000-09-12 11:48 ` Toon Moene 2 siblings, 2 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: Joe Buck @ 2000-09-12 11:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mark Mitchell; +Cc: lars, meissner%cygnus.com.binutils, gcc > lars> I certainly don't expect the maintainers to actively > lars> maintain the PDP-10 back end, or even care much if it > lars> breaks. Mark writes: > What's funny about these kinds of things is how hard it is to undo > anything. Whenever I propose getting rid of a "feature" in GCC, I > find that people now rely on that feature, or that at least many > people are afraid people rely on that feature. Support for a platform > is a feature. Once support is in GCC, it will probably be somewhat > difficult to remove that support. The approach gcc has taken to this problem in the past (whether we want to admit it or not) is to just let the uninteresting ports slowly degrade due to bit rot. This has the disadvantage that it can make gcc look bad, but if a committed user comes along at some point there is hope that the broken port can be fixed. Given this it is probably better to leave the ports in, with warnings about which ones have been tested and which ones are likely to have problems. A partially broken port doesn't have a negative impact on users of other ports. Features accessible from the front end, on the other hand, have a bigger impact, as they can slow down all future compiler development. Everyone working on optimizations or trying to track moving language standards has to waste time figuring out how to do the special case code for handling the case where the "feature" is used. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: m68k MacOS target support? 2000-09-12 11:16 ` Joe Buck @ 2000-09-12 11:22 ` Bernd Schmidt 2000-09-12 20:11 ` Mark Mitchell 2000-09-12 13:59 ` Stan Shebs 1 sibling, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: Bernd Schmidt @ 2000-09-12 11:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Joe Buck; +Cc: Mark Mitchell, lars, meissner%cygnus.com.binutils, gcc On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Joe Buck wrote: > > A partially broken port doesn't have a negative impact on users of other > ports. However, it does have an impact on developers. For example, I want to eliminate STRICT_LOW_PART from the compiler. To do this, I'll need to fix all existing ports. Likewise for any other global change that affects every port. It would be nice if we could come up with a list of ports which are expected to work and must be maintained, and which ones can be left to bitrot. Bernd ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: m68k MacOS target support? 2000-09-12 11:22 ` Bernd Schmidt @ 2000-09-12 20:11 ` Mark Mitchell 0 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: Mark Mitchell @ 2000-09-12 20:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bernds; +Cc: jbuck, lars, meissner%cygnus.com.binutils, gcc >>>>> "Bernd" == Bernd Schmidt <bernds@redhat.co.uk> writes: Bernd> On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Joe Buck wrote: >> A partially broken port doesn't have a negative impact on >> users of other ports. Bernd> However, it does have an impact on developers. For Bernd> example, I want to eliminate STRICT_LOW_PART from the Bernd> compiler. To do this, I'll need to fix all existing ports. Bernd> Likewise for any other global change that affects every Bernd> port. Yes -- and that was my point. I think everybody's right: Joe is correct that language extensions have more pervasive impact that old ports, and Bernd is right that even with back-ends there is a cost. I, too, have had to make more than one pass over every single machine description, and it is a pain -- especially since I know that some of the back-ends do not really work. -- Mark Mitchell mark@codesourcery.com CodeSourcery, LLC http://www.codesourcery.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: m68k MacOS target support? 2000-09-12 11:16 ` Joe Buck 2000-09-12 11:22 ` Bernd Schmidt @ 2000-09-12 13:59 ` Stan Shebs 2000-09-12 17:55 ` Richard Henderson 1 sibling, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: Stan Shebs @ 2000-09-12 13:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Joe Buck; +Cc: Mark Mitchell, lars, gcc Joe Buck wrote: > > > lars> I certainly don't expect the maintainers to actively > > lars> maintain the PDP-10 back end, or even care much if it > > lars> breaks. > > Mark writes: > > What's funny about these kinds of things is how hard it is to undo > > anything. Whenever I propose getting rid of a "feature" in GCC, I > > find that people now rely on that feature, or that at least many > > people are afraid people rely on that feature. Support for a platform > > is a feature. Once support is in GCC, it will probably be somewhat > > difficult to remove that support. > > The approach gcc has taken to this problem in the past (whether we want > to admit it or not) is to just let the uninteresting ports slowly degrade > due to bit rot. This has the disadvantage that it can make gcc look bad, > but if a committed user comes along at some point there is hope that the > broken port can be fixed. Given this it is probably better to leave the > ports in, with warnings about which ones have been tested and which ones > are likely to have problems. For GDB we had the problem that many of GDB's porting constructs had been deprecated or retired, the only references left were in obsolete ports, and new developers were being misled by their existence - in a couple cases spending extra work trying to update ports that had no chance of working. Worse, with GDB it's possible to have native ports whose code literally cannot be compiled anywhere else. So I discussed this with RMS and came up with a obsoletion scheme, where old code is prominently marked as obsolete (by commenting out every line), announced as such in a release, and if nobody has come forward to revive it by the time of the next release, it gets completely removed. So far only a handful of targets have been proved obsolete and gotten this treatment - Gould and Pyramid (pre-Mips) are the most notable. Stan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: m68k MacOS target support? 2000-09-12 13:59 ` Stan Shebs @ 2000-09-12 17:55 ` Richard Henderson 2000-09-12 19:12 ` Stan Shebs ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: Richard Henderson @ 2000-09-12 17:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stan Shebs; +Cc: Joe Buck, Mark Mitchell, gcc On Tue, Sep 12, 2000 at 01:59:02PM -0700, Stan Shebs wrote: > So I discussed this with RMS and came up with a obsoletion scheme, where > old code is prominently marked as obsolete (by commenting out every > line), announced as such in a release, and if nobody has come forward > to revive it by the time of the next release, it gets completely removed. Personally, I think we ought to immediately nuke all the ports that were never updated from gcc 1.x, and that have been commented out in the configure file since gcc 2.0. Namely: fx80, ns32k-ns-genix, pyramid, tahoe, gmicro. There are plenty of others that are also obsolete, but those named have had many multiples of years completely and obviously not compiled. r~ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: m68k MacOS target support? 2000-09-12 17:55 ` Richard Henderson @ 2000-09-12 19:12 ` Stan Shebs 2000-09-12 22:44 ` "Dead" Ports (was: m68k MacOS target support?) Gerald Pfeifer 2000-09-13 3:17 ` m68k MacOS target support? Joseph S. Myers 2 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: Stan Shebs @ 2000-09-12 19:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Henderson; +Cc: Joe Buck, Mark Mitchell, gcc Richard Henderson wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 12, 2000 at 01:59:02PM -0700, Stan Shebs wrote: > > So I discussed this with RMS and came up with a obsoletion scheme, where > > old code is prominently marked as obsolete (by commenting out every > > line), announced as such in a release, and if nobody has come forward > > to revive it by the time of the next release, it gets completely removed. > > Personally, I think we ought to immediately nuke all the ports that > were never updated from gcc 1.x, and that have been commented out in > the configure file since gcc 2.0. > > Namely: fx80, ns32k-ns-genix, pyramid, tahoe, gmicro. Of these, I only researched the Pyramid thoroughly enough to determine that the platform was really and truly dead. I've been somewhat conservative, because sometimes we actually hear from someone actively using a supposedly-vanished type of system. > There are plenty of others that are also obsolete, but those named > have had many multiples of years completely and obviously not compiled. Yeah, they're pretty much just taking up disk space then. Stan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* "Dead" Ports (was: m68k MacOS target support?) 2000-09-12 17:55 ` Richard Henderson 2000-09-12 19:12 ` Stan Shebs @ 2000-09-12 22:44 ` Gerald Pfeifer 2000-09-13 9:26 ` Jeffrey A Law 2000-09-13 3:17 ` m68k MacOS target support? Joseph S. Myers 2 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: Gerald Pfeifer @ 2000-09-12 22:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Henderson; +Cc: Stan Shebs, Joe Buck, Mark Mitchell, gcc On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Richard Henderson wrote: > Personally, I think we ought to immediately nuke all the ports that > were never updated from gcc 1.x, and that have been commented out in > the configure file since gcc 2.0. > > Namely: fx80, ns32k-ns-genix, pyramid, tahoe, gmicro. > > There are plenty of others that are also obsolete, but those named > have had many multiples of years completely and obviously not compiled. I second this. How about announcing this plan to gcc-announce and, unless there are significant and founded objections, nuke the part after, say, 3 weeks? Gerald -- Gerald "Jerry" pfeifer@dbai.tuwien.ac.at http://www.dbai.tuwien.ac.at/~pfeifer/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: "Dead" Ports (was: m68k MacOS target support?) 2000-09-12 22:44 ` "Dead" Ports (was: m68k MacOS target support?) Gerald Pfeifer @ 2000-09-13 9:26 ` Jeffrey A Law 2000-09-13 9:33 ` Bernd Schmidt 2000-09-13 9:57 ` Bruce Korb 0 siblings, 2 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: Jeffrey A Law @ 2000-09-13 9:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Gerald Pfeifer Cc: Richard Henderson, Stan Shebs, Joe Buck, Mark Mitchell, gcc In message <Pine.BSF.4.21.0009130740070.67582-100000@taygeta.dbai.tuwien.ac.a t>you write: > On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Richard Henderson wrote: > > Personally, I think we ought to immediately nuke all the ports that > > were never updated from gcc 1.x, and that have been commented out in > > the configure file since gcc 2.0. > > > > Namely: fx80, ns32k-ns-genix, pyramid, tahoe, gmicro. > > > > There are plenty of others that are also obsolete, but those named > > have had many multiples of years completely and obviously not compiled. > > I second this. > > How about announcing this plan to gcc-announce and, unless there are > significant and founded objections, nuke the part after, say, 3 weeks? Let's add the spur chip to the list above and make the announcement/request. Other opinions? jeff ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: "Dead" Ports (was: m68k MacOS target support?) 2000-09-13 9:26 ` Jeffrey A Law @ 2000-09-13 9:33 ` Bernd Schmidt 2000-09-13 11:40 ` Stan Shebs 2000-09-13 9:57 ` Bruce Korb 1 sibling, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: Bernd Schmidt @ 2000-09-13 9:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jeffrey A Law Cc: Gerald Pfeifer, Richard Henderson, Stan Shebs, Joe Buck, Mark Mitchell, gcc On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Jeffrey A Law wrote: > > Other opinions? I'm not necessarily requesting we add these to the "nuke immediately" list, but does anyone know whether romp/a29k/we32k/clipper/elxsi are likely to be in use? It also seems like these haven't been changed in any serious way for a long time either. Bernd ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: "Dead" Ports (was: m68k MacOS target support?) 2000-09-13 9:33 ` Bernd Schmidt @ 2000-09-13 11:40 ` Stan Shebs 0 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: Stan Shebs @ 2000-09-13 11:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Bernd Schmidt; +Cc: gcc Bernd Schmidt wrote: > > On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Jeffrey A Law wrote: > > > > Other opinions? > > I'm not necessarily requesting we add these to the "nuke immediately" list, > but does anyone know whether romp/a29k/we32k/clipper/elxsi are likely to be > in use? It also seems like these haven't been changed in any serious way > for a long time either. Kenner's examples show why it's important to do research on a target and to move slowly on evaporating configurations. If a GCC config ever worked at one time, it's quite likely it still has users, unless all copies of the hardware have disappeared. I researched a couple obscure configs for GDB (such as CX/UX), thinking they were dead, and turned up whole web sites, including release notes for modified versions of GNU tools, etc. By contrast, I was able to prove the Gould's demise by finding a site that was an epitaph for the last one - and the site described how that machine had been kept alive for several years by cannibalizing the second-to-last Gould. Stan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: "Dead" Ports (was: m68k MacOS target support?) 2000-09-13 9:26 ` Jeffrey A Law 2000-09-13 9:33 ` Bernd Schmidt @ 2000-09-13 9:57 ` Bruce Korb 1 sibling, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: Bruce Korb @ 2000-09-13 9:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: law Cc: Gerald Pfeifer, Richard Henderson, Stan Shebs, Joe Buck, Mark Mitchell, gcc Jeffrey A Law wrote: > Other opinions? How about other cruft? The include fixes are also monotonically increasing in size, too. Surely *some* of the fixes are obsolete. :-) It would be trivial to hack up a version that would report the fixes that made a difference somewhere. What would be hard is deciding how to ensure the hacked version was exercised on the relevant, active platforms. Probably not today.... - Bruce ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: m68k MacOS target support? 2000-09-12 17:55 ` Richard Henderson 2000-09-12 19:12 ` Stan Shebs 2000-09-12 22:44 ` "Dead" Ports (was: m68k MacOS target support?) Gerald Pfeifer @ 2000-09-13 3:17 ` Joseph S. Myers 2 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: Joseph S. Myers @ 2000-09-13 3:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Henderson; +Cc: gcc On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Richard Henderson wrote: > Personally, I think we ought to immediately nuke all the ports that > were never updated from gcc 1.x, and that have been commented out in > the configure file since gcc 2.0. > > Namely: fx80, ns32k-ns-genix, pyramid, tahoe, gmicro. The spur port seems to be in the same state (but missing altogether from configure). As far as I can tell the last change to that port that wasn't part of some general change applied across multiple ports to which it was applicable was in 1989: Tue Apr 4 12:22:06 1989 Richard Stallman (rms at sugar-bombs.ai.mit.edu) * spur.md (movqi, loadhi, extend*, zero_extendhisi): Make subregs with C code, not RTL patterns, so we can avoid generating subreg of subreg. -- Joseph S. Myers jsm28@cam.ac.uk ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: m68k MacOS target support? 2000-09-12 0:15 ` Mark Mitchell 2000-09-12 3:26 ` lars brinkhoff 2000-09-12 11:16 ` Joe Buck @ 2000-09-12 11:48 ` Toon Moene 2 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: Toon Moene @ 2000-09-12 11:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mark Mitchell; +Cc: lars, meissner@cygnus.com.binutils, gcc Mark Mitchell wrote: > if there are other architectures that have similarly unusual pointer > formats. (I don't know whether there are such beasts or not, > honestly). It looks suspiciously like the Cray (Parallel Vector, i.e. Cray Classic) character pointer format. The word (64 bits) address is in the lower 32 bits of the pointer and the bit offset within the word is in the upper 6 bits of the pointer. [ With this information at hand, estimate the number of instructions necessary to encode the loop body in: f(char *s, char *t) { while (*s++ = *t++) ; } given only word sized loads, stores and shifts. Use of a slide rule is permitted. ] HTH, -- Toon Moene - mailto:toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl - phoneto: +31 346 214290 Saturnushof 14, 3738 XG Maartensdijk, The Netherlands GNU Fortran 77: http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/g77_news.html GNU Fortran 95: http://g95.sourceforge.net/ (under construction) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: m68k MacOS target support? 2000-09-12 0:02 ` lars brinkhoff 2000-09-12 0:15 ` Mark Mitchell @ 2000-09-12 7:32 ` Jeffrey A Law 2000-09-12 11:11 ` PDP10 support (was Re: m68k MacOS target support?) Joe Buck 2 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: Jeffrey A Law @ 2000-09-12 7:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: lars brinkhoff; +Cc: Mark Mitchell, meissner%cygnus.com.binutils, gcc In message < 857l8ip00i.fsf@junk.nocrew.org >you write: > That's very interesting, because I'd like to know if the GCC > maintainers are interested in the changes I would have to make to GCC > for it to support the different PDP-10 pointer formats. We're primarily interested in those changes which apply to other more modern architectures. For example, changes which improve GCC's handling of multiple pointer formats are of interest to us as there are modern targets which would benefit from that infrastructure. jeff ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* PDP10 support (was Re: m68k MacOS target support?) 2000-09-12 0:02 ` lars brinkhoff 2000-09-12 0:15 ` Mark Mitchell 2000-09-12 7:32 ` Jeffrey A Law @ 2000-09-12 11:11 ` Joe Buck 2000-09-13 14:51 ` PDP10 support Gerald Pfeifer 2 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: Joe Buck @ 2000-09-12 11:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: lars brinkhoff; +Cc: Mark Mitchell, meissner%cygnus.com.binutils, gcc Lars Brinkoff writes: > That's very interesting, because I'd like to know if the GCC > maintainers are interested in the changes I would have to make to GCC > for it to support the different PDP-10 pointer formats. If it only benefits the PDP-10, it's not that interesting. However, there's a large group of word-oriented architectures out there (DSPs). Since these do little if any character processing, the 32-bit byte approach isn't too bad, but some DSP users might be interested in being able to use 8 and 16 bit quantities (half and quarter words). For that reason, your work may be interesting. I'm also a believer in strong typing and while I can't currently demonstrate it, I have a vague feeling that the quality of the back end may be improved and possibly more opportunities for improvement exposed if careful attention is paid to what is an address and what is an integer, as this work will require. > It's my intention that the changes should be as non-intrusive as > possible and make GCC easier to port to other architectures with > unsusual pointer formats. My employer may be willing to sponsor this > if it's an improvement of GCC. But if the GCC maintainers are not > interested in this, I'd rather just make the changes necessary for > PDP-10 without considering other architectures. We'd have to see if DSP folks are interested. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: PDP10 support 2000-09-12 11:11 ` PDP10 support (was Re: m68k MacOS target support?) Joe Buck @ 2000-09-13 14:51 ` Gerald Pfeifer 2000-09-14 0:15 ` lars brinkhoff 0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: Gerald Pfeifer @ 2000-09-13 14:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: lars brinkhoff, gcc; +Cc: Joe Buck, Mark Mitchell, meissner [ removed binutils from distribution ] On 12 Sep 2000, lars brinkhoff wrote: > Is there something I can do to get the attention of the SC? Other > than posting these letters, of course. As you noticed, most of us are reading this list on a daily base ;-), so this is the preferred medium for general discussion as it also adds the vast knowledge of lots of other contributors and users. Should you (or someone else) want to raise a private issue with the SC or ask the SC for a decision if discussions on the lists have not led to a clear conclusion, you can always contact a SC member of your choice who will then forward that request. However, note that the SC should not (and will not) interfere with day to day work -- for that we have lots of highly qualified maintainers and critical users. :-) On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Joe Buck wrote: > If it only benefits the PDP-10, it's not that interesting. However, > there's a large group of word-oriented architectures out there (DSPs). > Since these do little if any character processing, the 32-bit byte > approach isn't too bad, but some DSP users might be interested in > being able to use 8 and 16 bit quantities (half and quarter words). > For that reason, your work may be interesting. Seconded. FWIW, that makes three global write commiters/four SC members that view your proposal as useful in principle, if I've counted correctly. ;-) Gerald -- Gerald "Jerry" pfeifer@dbai.tuwien.ac.at http://www.dbai.tuwien.ac.at/~pfeifer/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: PDP10 support 2000-09-13 14:51 ` PDP10 support Gerald Pfeifer @ 2000-09-14 0:15 ` lars brinkhoff 2000-09-14 7:47 ` Nick Ing-Simmons 0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: lars brinkhoff @ 2000-09-14 0:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Gerald Pfeifer; +Cc: gcc, Joe Buck, Mark Mitchell, meissner Gerald Pfeifer <pfeifer@dbai.tuwien.ac.at> writes: > FWIW, that makes three global write commiters/four SC members that view > your proposal as useful in principle, if I've counted correctly. ;-) These are the positive comments I've found, with Mark Mitchell being the most sceptical, and almost everyone pointing out that PDP-10 support is quite useless in itself. It would also be interesting to hear from the DSP folks. Michael Meissner <meissner@cygnus.com> writes: > On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 11:18:00AM +0200, lars brinkhoff wrote: > > Isn't it about time gcc was enhanced to support "weird" pointers? > Sure I do. Mark Mitchell: > Those kind of generic changes are probably welcome -- especially if > they don't add much maintenance overhead, and if there are other > architectures that have similarly unusual pointer formats. kenner@vlsi1.ultra.nyu.edu (Richard Kenner) writes: > [...] adding support for this, if done cleanly, is likely to > be a worthwhile addition to GCC since it may produce a level of > abstraction in the handling of pointers that might make *other* > things easlier down the road. Jeffrey A Law <law@cygnus.com> writes: > [...] changes which improve GCC's handling of multiple pointer > formats are of interest to us as there are modern targets which > would benefit from that infrastructure. Joe Buck <jbuck@racerx.synopsys.com> writes: > [...] there's a large group of word-oriented architectures out there > (DSPs). [...] For that reason, your work may be interesting. > [...] I have a vague feeling that the quality of the back end may be > improved and possibly more opportunities for improvement exposed if > careful attention is paid to what is an address and what is an > integer, as this work will require. Gerald Pfeifer <pfeifer@dbai.tuwien.ac.at> writes: > On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Joe Buck wrote: > > [...] For that reason, your work may be interesting. > Seconded. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: PDP10 support 2000-09-14 0:15 ` lars brinkhoff @ 2000-09-14 7:47 ` Nick Ing-Simmons 0 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: Nick Ing-Simmons @ 2000-09-14 7:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: lars; +Cc: gcc, Gerald Pfeifer, meissner, Mark Mitchell, Joe Buck Lars Brinkhoff <lars@nocrew.org> writes: > >It would also be interesting to hear from the DSP folks. Okay here is a _personal_ view as someone that has tried to ports to various TI DSPs: Weird addresses would have been useful for one of the ports (actually thing was more of a micro-controller than a DSP). Older C2X DSPs, and modern C5X which are backward compatible are 16-bit words only. As such addressing bytes was just not possible - packing bytes means reading 16 bits and/shift/or and write 16 bits. C3X/C4X are basically 32-bit with "some" support for messing with bytes they also have non-IEEE 40-bit float. C6X is byte addressed. C8X is byte addressed. Most of the problems with DSPs were not the format of the addressing, but: - opcode squeezing which meant that which set of index registers you could use depended on choice of base registers etc. Reload has no support for such stuff, so you end up using a subset of registers. - Register allocation - GCC likes to keep a pseudo in one hard register, but if you multiply it and then use as an index it has to move. So you need to split into multiple pseudos then stop GCC collapsing them back into one. - the lack of hardware interlocks (exposed pipeline) meaning need to insert NOPs for loads and other multi-cycle ops - as well as branches. - VLIW scheduling. (Super scalar without harware interlocks.) Also register allocation which depends on which "unit" operation is scheduled for. - Fussy details like HI*HI => SI multiply is highly optimal so shift schemes need to be disabled - except when used for address generation. - Figuring out what RTL "combine" would come up with for expressions that mapped on to DSPish things like MPY+ADD+SHIFT so that insn patterns that matched could be written -- Nick Ing-Simmons <nik@tiuk.ti.com> Via, but not speaking for: Texas Instruments Ltd. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: m68k MacOS target support? 2000-09-11 21:33 ` Mark Mitchell 2000-09-12 0:02 ` lars brinkhoff @ 2000-09-12 0:03 ` lars brinkhoff 1 sibling, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: lars brinkhoff @ 2000-09-12 0:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mark Mitchell; +Cc: meissner, binutils, gcc [resend, sorry] Mark Mitchell <mark@codesourcery.com> writes: > >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Meissner <meissner@cygnus.com> writes: > Michael> You never know. There is after all, somebody porting GCC > Michael> to the Dec-10 architecture, something like 10-15 years > Michael> after DEC stopped making them (I don't recall when the > Michael> plug was pulled). I seem to recall discussion about the > Michael> VAX and GCC working on pristine BSD 4.3 in the last 2 > Michael> months. Unfortunately, the AS400 effort seems to be > Michael> running into a wall. > > For the record, I don't think that we (as mainline GCC developers) > should worry about these kinds of platforms, and I think Stan's > comments show a very mature mode of thinking towards 68K Macs. There > is a large burden in dragging around old ports, trying to make sure > Makefiles work there, and so forth. If someone else wants to keep GCC > working on a Dec-10, or a PDP-11, or an SV3 system, or whatever that's > just great -- but I don't think we should worry about those systems > when maintaining GCC. That's very interesting, because I'd like to know if the GCC maintainers are interested in the changes I would have to make to GCC for it to support the different PDP-10 pointer formats. It's my intention that the changes should be as non-intrusive as possible and make GCC easier to port to other architectures with unsusual pointer formats. My employer may be willing to sponsor this if it's an improvement of GCC. But if the GCC maintainers are not interested in this, I'd rather just make the changes necessary for PDP-10 without considering other architectures. The same goes for binutils and GDB, by the way. I certainly don't expect the maintainers to actively maintain the PDP-10 back end, or even care much if it breaks. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: m68k MacOS target support? 2000-09-11 20:47 ` Stan Shebs 2000-09-11 20:56 ` Michael Meissner @ 2000-09-12 9:52 ` David Huggins-Daines 1 sibling, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: David Huggins-Daines @ 2000-09-12 9:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stan Shebs; +Cc: Michael Sokolov, binutils, gcc Stan Shebs <shebs@apple.com> writes: > All three of these versions used to be at Cygnus' ftp site, presumably > they're still there, and you can get the talking compiler on MacHack's > CD (www.machack.com). Alas, none of them is of much use for porting > current GCC to m68k MacOS, since they assume MPW, and now-unsupported > versions at that. Most of the changes are highly MPW-specific anyway, > with the exception of Pascal string (\p) and four-char-constants ('oapp') > support in the frontend. Hey, MPW runs great on my Quadras! Seriously, an m68k port that targeted CFM68k binaries only would probably be reasonable to support *iff* there were also a maintained port to MacOS/powerpc. Seeing as MacOS itself is going to start fading into the sunset shortly, I guess this isn't likely. > So given that m68k Macs are slowly fading into the sunset, and that > the PalmOS GCC port has little in common with the old Mac ports, I'd say > it's not worth spending much time worrying about m68k Mac support in > current GCC. Probably not. I do find it sad that we require a highly non-free compiler to build the bootloaders and other MacOS support utilities for installing and running free operating systems (NetBSD, GNU/Linux, mkLinux) on older Macintoshes (both m68k and powerpc based). And the gratis MPW compilers really suck compared to GCC (no inline assembly, etc, so on). Oh well, so it goes. -- dhd@linuxcare.com, http://www.linuxcare.com/ Linuxcare. Support for the revolution. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2000-09-14 7:47 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 28+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2000-09-09 12:33 m68k MacOS target support? Michael Sokolov 2000-09-11 20:47 ` Stan Shebs 2000-09-11 20:56 ` Michael Meissner 2000-09-11 21:33 ` Mark Mitchell 2000-09-12 0:02 ` lars brinkhoff 2000-09-12 0:15 ` Mark Mitchell 2000-09-12 3:26 ` lars brinkhoff 2000-09-12 7:23 ` Mark Mitchell 2000-09-12 11:16 ` Joe Buck 2000-09-12 11:22 ` Bernd Schmidt 2000-09-12 20:11 ` Mark Mitchell 2000-09-12 13:59 ` Stan Shebs 2000-09-12 17:55 ` Richard Henderson 2000-09-12 19:12 ` Stan Shebs 2000-09-12 22:44 ` "Dead" Ports (was: m68k MacOS target support?) Gerald Pfeifer 2000-09-13 9:26 ` Jeffrey A Law 2000-09-13 9:33 ` Bernd Schmidt 2000-09-13 11:40 ` Stan Shebs 2000-09-13 9:57 ` Bruce Korb 2000-09-13 3:17 ` m68k MacOS target support? Joseph S. Myers 2000-09-12 11:48 ` Toon Moene 2000-09-12 7:32 ` Jeffrey A Law 2000-09-12 11:11 ` PDP10 support (was Re: m68k MacOS target support?) Joe Buck 2000-09-13 14:51 ` PDP10 support Gerald Pfeifer 2000-09-14 0:15 ` lars brinkhoff 2000-09-14 7:47 ` Nick Ing-Simmons 2000-09-12 0:03 ` m68k MacOS target support? lars brinkhoff 2000-09-12 9:52 ` David Huggins-Daines
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