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From: Alexandre Oliva <oliva@gnu.org>
To: Jonathan Wakely <jwakely.gcc@gmail.com>
Cc: Nathan Sidwell <nathan@acm.org>, GCC Development <gcc@gcc.gnu.org>
Subject: Re: Remove RMS from the GCC Steering Committee
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 12:45:15 -0300	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <or35wg38j8.fsf@lxoliva.fsfla.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAH6eHdRg=ZRcFdq_Abx_Jjfq5sn86e1-bmyh3mF0-_Yd8wacDg@mail.gmail.com> (Jonathan Wakely's message of "Sat, 27 Mar 2021 14:10:08 +0000")

On Mar 27, 2021, Jonathan Wakely <jwakely.gcc@gmail.com> wrote:

> But listing his name on our web page as a leader of the project
> surely makes a difference to how the project is perceived.

You're probably right that it does, just maybe not quite in the way you
seem to perceive it.

The Free Software community is a lot more diverse in opinions than the
corporate-centered fossal scene where the present moral panic (no
offense intended with this term; I aim to *not* pass a judgment on its
legitimacy by using it) appears to be running strongest.

If FSF's experiences in 2019 are of any use, though the wave of
community pressure for Richard's removal or resignation hit hard, the
wave of complaints that he had resigned, shortly thereafter, was about
an order of magnitude stronger, according to my analysis of the data
that was made available to me.

Right now, published voices are quite divided, but there are also lots
of people being driven into silence by the aggressiveness of the
emotional peer pressure.  There are also reports of one-sided corporate
pressure.  Richard's support base is not quite as vocal, furious or
deep-pocketed, but it's far more numerous and more discrete.

All in all, it looks to me like, in the long term, a public stance in
alignment with present emotional demands is more likely to backfire, and
make the project seem less welcoming, than staying put.

> The active developers know he is not involved in any significant way, but
> you wouldn't know that from the web page.

You wouldn't know about allegations against him from the web page
either.  It's quite easy to find them in web searches, and they're also
consistent in disclaiming his direct participation in software
development projects, so it should be fine.

> Is it helpful to give that impression?

At least in my circles, his name signals strong commitment to respect
for the freedoms of software users, and that's the criterion that IMHO
should matter the most for GNU and all of its subprojects.

As for being inclusive and kind, these are also very important goals
that we should devote attention and effort to.  But despite numerous
claims, these are not points of dissent with him.  The fears spread by
this sort of campaign are far more effective at pushing contributors
away than the reality that they twist and exaggerate.


> If the SC decision is that it's fine, then making a statement to that
> effect seems necessary.

It looks like statements of any position whatsoever are invitations for
pressure and trouble right now.


Now, there's another thing I've learned during my tenure at the FSF:
pressure upon decision-making bodies is not conducive of or propitious
for long-term reasoning or rational, thought-through decisions.  It
takes time for difficult decisions to mature, even for an individual,
let alone for a group that may require multiple cycles of interaction
for convergence.

I've learned that this kind of pressure is undesirable, when I worked to
foment it and then was taught, even by the very person who was supported
by that pressure, that, rather than offer useful guidance, pressure
created difficulties for the collective decision-making body.


So, thanks for listening, and for keeping this conversation civil and
kind despite the very strong emotions that a lot of people are feeling
and expressing,

-- 
Alexandre Oliva, happy hacker  https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
   Free Software Activist         GNU Toolchain Engineer
        Vim, Vi, Voltei pro Emacs -- GNUlius Caesar

  reply	other threads:[~2021-03-27 15:45 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 282+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-03-26 20:02 Nathan Sidwell
2021-03-26 20:20 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-26 20:51 ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-03-26 21:18   ` Mark Wielaard
2021-03-26 21:34   ` David Malcolm
2021-03-26 21:09 ` Marek Polacek
2021-03-26 22:53 ` Hi-Angel
2021-03-26 23:50   ` Thomas Rodgers
2021-03-27  7:08     ` Didier Kryn
2021-03-27 21:44       ` Andrea Corallo
2021-03-29 17:28       ` Christophe de Dinechin
2021-03-27 13:38 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-03-27 14:10   ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-03-27 15:45     ` Alexandre Oliva [this message]
2021-03-27 17:12   ` Siddhesh Poyarekar
2021-03-27 17:33     ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-28 14:50     ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-03-28 17:25       ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-03-28 19:01       ` Siddhesh Poyarekar
2021-03-28  2:16   ` Óscar Fuentes
2021-03-28  2:27     ` Óscar Fuentes
2021-03-28  4:08       ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-28 12:47   ` Mark Wielaard
2021-03-28 13:19     ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-03-28 14:33     ` JeanHeyd Meneide
2021-03-28 18:13       ` Mark Wielaard
2021-03-28 18:42         ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-28 19:15           ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-03-30  0:20         ` Joseph Myers
2021-03-30  1:32           ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-30  8:20             ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-03-30  2:08           ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-03-30 10:03             ` Mark Wielaard
2021-03-28 17:58     ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-28 18:24     ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-03-28 23:21     ` Soul Studios
2021-03-29  0:20       ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-29 12:18       ` Richard Kenner
2021-03-29 21:41         ` Soul Studios
2021-03-29 23:32           ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-30  0:09             ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-03-30  0:39               ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-30  1:30                 ` Thomas Rodgers
2021-03-30  1:56                   ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-30  9:14               ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-03-30 11:56               ` Richard Kenner
     [not found]             ` <20210330115515.E8A2033CB0@vlsi1.gnat.com>
2021-03-30 12:33               ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-30  9:28         ` Mark Wielaard
2021-03-30 12:37           ` Richard Kenner
2021-03-27 20:49 ` Martin Liška
2021-03-27 22:10   ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-28 17:48   ` Jeff Law
2021-03-27 22:07 ` Martin Jambor
2021-03-28 15:26 ` Jeff Law
2021-03-29 10:11 ` Richard Biener
2021-03-30  8:25   ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-03-30  9:47     ` Didier Kryn
2021-03-30  9:52       ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-03-30  9:52       ` Didier Kryn
2021-03-30 10:12       ` Andrew Haley
2021-03-30 10:34         ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-03-30 11:12           ` Andrew Haley
2021-03-30 11:32             ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-03-30 10:50 ` Pankaj Jangid
2021-03-30 13:16 ` Giacomo Tesio
2021-03-30 13:30   ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-30 16:50   ` Martin Jambor
2021-03-30 17:10     ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-30 18:30       ` Gabriel Ravier
2021-03-30 18:52         ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-03-30 16:56   ` Markus Böck
2021-03-30 17:07   ` JeanHeyd Meneide
2021-03-30 17:45     ` Joseph Myers
2021-03-30 18:13       ` Christopher Dimech
     [not found]         ` <CAFVAEf2CP87uEuca677MQt4hriQWk5Rn4s9AaQ0yGPUpAeXWpg@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]           ` <trinity-9f325315-c1b2-4fb5-b094-c0fd1534172a-1617140135769@3c-app-mailcom-bs07>
     [not found]             ` <CAFVAEf2QDDXMwAu1vtLpf-Gvqz6i19Jmph3dao9V6iWyysudMg@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]               ` <trinity-b0f59ed8-7545-49d0-979a-b6a5323107e5-1617146046177@3c-app-mailcom-bs07>
2021-03-30 23:56                 ` Andrew Sutton
2021-03-30 18:09     ` JeanHeyd Meneide
2021-03-30 21:28     ` Giacomo Tesio
2021-03-30 22:18       ` Joseph Myers
2021-03-31  8:53       ` Martin Jambor
2021-03-31 13:26         ` Giacomo Tesio
2021-03-31 11:34       ` Mark Wielaard
2021-03-31 12:28         ` Richard Biener
2021-03-31 12:55           ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-03-31 12:59           ` David Edelsohn
2021-03-31 13:21             ` Richard Biener
2021-04-06 10:34               ` Mark Wielaard
2021-03-31 13:46             ` Florian Weimer
2021-03-31 15:23               ` David Edelsohn
2021-03-31 15:43                 ` Richard Biener
2021-03-31 15:43           ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-03-31 12:46         ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-06 22:22           ` GCC association with the FSF Mark Wielaard
2021-04-06 22:28             ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-07 14:04             ` David Malcolm
2021-04-07 17:17               ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-07 17:21                 ` Jeff Law
2021-04-08 15:00                 ` David Brown
2021-04-08 16:43                   ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-08 18:40                     ` David Brown
2021-04-11 21:23                       ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-11 22:41                         ` Nathan Sidwell
2021-04-08 19:30                     ` Gabriel Ravier
2021-04-09 11:48                       ` Pankaj Jangid
2021-04-09 14:47                         ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-09 16:30                         ` Gabriel Ravier
2021-04-10 12:58                           ` Pankaj Jangid
2021-04-10 16:34                             ` David Brown
2021-04-10 18:57                               ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-12  4:17                               ` Pankaj Jangid
2021-04-08 17:22                   ` Giacomo Tesio
2021-04-08 18:26                     ` Thomas Rodgers
2021-04-08 20:26                     ` David Brown
2021-04-11 13:39                   ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-04-11 14:03                     ` David Brown
2021-04-11 14:42                       ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-11 14:21                     ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-08 19:48               ` Mark Wielaard
2021-04-08 20:33                 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-09  6:27                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-04-09 13:08                   ` Paul Koning
2021-04-09 14:08                   ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-11 13:42                 ` Richard Sandiford
2021-04-11 15:06                   ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-11 15:56                     ` David Brown
2021-04-11 16:45                       ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-12  9:32                         ` Richard Biener
2021-04-12 10:27                           ` Thomas Koenig
2021-04-12 21:24                           ` Nathan Sidwell
2021-04-13  6:01                             ` Richard Biener
2021-04-13 14:40                               ` Jeff Law
2021-04-13 16:52                                 ` Thomas Koenig
2021-04-13 17:19                                   ` Jeff Law
2021-04-13 17:32                                     ` Thomas Koenig
2021-04-13 23:41                                       ` Jeff Law
2021-04-14  6:44                                         ` Thomas Koenig
2021-04-14  7:57                                           ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-14 10:03                                             ` Thomas Koenig
2021-04-14 10:19                                               ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-14 12:08                                                 ` Richard Biener
2021-04-14 16:18                                                   ` Jeff Law
2021-04-14 16:35                                                     ` Toon Moene
2021-04-14 16:55                                                       ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-14 17:42                                                         ` Jeff Law
2021-04-14 18:07                                                           ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-14 17:53                                                     ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-15 16:02                                                   ` Jason Merrill
2021-04-15 16:24                                                     ` Richard Biener
2021-04-15 17:42                                                       ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-07 14:51             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-04-07 15:15               ` David Malcolm
2021-04-07 16:24                 ` John Darrington
2021-04-07 17:14                   ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-07 22:34                   ` David Malcolm
2021-04-08  6:45                     ` John Darrington
2021-04-08 11:56                       ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-08 12:08                         ` John Darrington
2021-04-08 14:54                       ` David Malcolm
2021-04-08 18:21                         ` John Darrington
2021-04-08 18:58                           ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-09  1:35                           ` David Malcolm
2021-04-09  6:37                             ` John Darrington
2021-04-09 10:37                               ` David Brown
2021-04-09 14:40                                 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-09 17:01                                   ` David Brown
2021-04-09 18:02                                     ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-09 19:37                                       ` Thomas Rodgers
2021-04-09 21:02                                         ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-09 21:17                                           ` Thomas Rodgers
2021-04-09 21:34                                             ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-10  2:53                                       ` Liu Hao
2021-04-10  3:15                                         ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-10 12:50                                           ` Bronek Kozicki
2021-04-10 14:10                                             ` John Darrington
2021-04-10 15:33                                               ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-10 19:47                                             ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-10 21:45                                               ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-10 23:06                                           ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-04-10 12:27                                       ` David Brown
2021-04-10 13:04                                         ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-10 14:49                                         ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-10 15:17                                           ` Thomas Rodgers
2021-04-10 15:54                                             ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-10 16:14                                               ` Thomas Rodgers
2021-04-10 16:49                                                 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-10 15:59                                             ` David Malcolm
2021-04-10 16:09                                               ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-10 20:10                                             ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-10 22:06                                               ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-11 13:11                                                 ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-11 14:04                                                   ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-10 22:30                                               ` Gerald Pfeifer
2021-04-11 12:05                                                 ` John Darrington
2021-04-11 13:00                                                   ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-11 13:24                                                   ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-11 13:43                                                   ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-11 13:12                                                 ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-11 13:23                                                 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-11 13:26                                                   ` Frosku
2021-04-11 13:32                                                     ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-11 13:30                                                   ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-11 14:25                                                     ` John Darrington
2021-04-11 14:37                                                       ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-11 15:04                                                         ` David Brown
2021-04-12  0:08                                                           ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-04-11 14:17                                                   ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-11 18:28                                                     ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-11 20:04                                                       ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-11 20:45                                                         ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-11 22:30                                                           ` Adhemerval Zanella
2021-04-11 23:06                                                             ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-11 23:33                                                               ` Adhemerval Zanella
2021-04-12  1:43                                                                 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-12  2:15                                                                   ` Siddhesh Poyarekar
2021-04-12  3:13                                                                   ` Adhemerval Zanella
2021-04-12 17:52                                                                     ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-12 18:18                                                                       ` Adhemerval Zanella
2021-04-12  7:25                                                             ` John Darrington
2021-04-12  9:00                                                               ` Siddhesh Poyarekar
2021-04-11 23:13                                                         ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-09 18:26                                     ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-09 18:36                                     ` John Darrington
2021-04-09 20:04                                       ` Giacomo Tesio
2021-04-09 21:40                                         ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-04-09 22:12                                           ` Giacomo Tesio
2021-04-09 22:39                                             ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-10 11:36                                               ` Pankaj Jangid
2021-04-10 12:35                                                 ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-10 15:04                                                   ` Thomas Rodgers
2021-04-10 16:01                                                     ` Giacomo Tesio
2021-04-10 16:12                                                       ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-10 19:52                                                       ` Thomas Rodgers
2021-04-10 21:29                                                         ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-10 20:13                                                       ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-10 22:50                                                       ` Gerald Pfeifer
2021-04-11 23:56                                                 ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-04-12  1:03                                                   ` David Edelsohn
2021-04-12  1:34                                                     ` Chris Punches
2021-04-12 10:24                                                       ` Bronek Kozicki
2021-04-12 11:57                                                         ` Bronek Kozicki
2021-04-12 15:25                                                       ` Kalamatee
2021-04-12 21:22                                                       ` Nathan Sidwell
2021-04-12 23:09                                                         ` Chris Punches
2021-04-13  0:29                                                           ` Daniel (Robin) Smith
2021-04-09 22:58                                             ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-09 23:12                                             ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-10 22:33                                         ` Gerald Pfeifer
2021-04-10 12:37                                       ` David Brown
2021-04-10 15:28                                         ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-09 13:00                               ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-07 18:00                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-03-31 13:28         ` Remove RMS from the GCC Steering Committee Giacomo Tesio
2021-03-31 13:49           ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-03-31 14:47           ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-31 14:18         ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-31 14:22           ` Paul Koning
2021-03-31 14:43             ` Joel Sherrill
2021-03-31 15:49               ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-03-31 18:27                 ` David Edelsohn
2021-04-01 17:07                   ` Nathan Sidwell
2021-04-01 19:19                     ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-04-01 20:33                       ` Joseph Myers
2021-04-01 21:03                         ` Christian Groessler
2021-04-01 21:53                         ` Thomas Koenig
2021-04-01 22:00                           ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-05 15:32                       ` Nathan Sidwell
2021-04-06 10:27                       ` Richard Biener
2021-04-06 11:18                         ` Matthias Klose
2021-04-06 14:14                         ` Siddhesh Poyarekar
2021-04-06 17:17                         ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-03-31 14:56           ` David Malcolm
2021-03-31 15:43             ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-31  1:57     ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-03-31  2:51       ` JeanHeyd Meneide
2021-03-31  3:51         ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-03-31  7:14     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-03-31  8:15       ` JeanHeyd Meneide
2021-03-30 15:24 ` Maksim Fomin
2021-03-30 16:20   ` Richard Kenner
2021-03-31 11:08   ` Franz Fehringer
2021-03-30  7:46 mfriley
2021-03-30  8:14 ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-03-30 23:33 Ville Voutilainen

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