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From: Alexandre Oliva <oliva@gnu.org>
To: Mark Wielaard <mark@klomp.org>
Cc: GCC Development <gcc@gcc.gnu.org>, Nathan Sidwell <nathan@acm.org>
Subject: Re: Remove RMS from the GCC Steering Committee
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 15:24:55 -0300	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <or8s6716h4.fsf@lxoliva.fsfla.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20210328124744.GQ2685@wildebeest.org> (Mark Wielaard's message of "Sun, 28 Mar 2021 14:47:44 +0200")

On Mar 28, 2021, Mark Wielaard <mark@klomp.org> wrote:

> It shows we don't tolerate harassment in our project.

It shows we will favor and engage in harassment against a certain
demographic group, while pretending or believing it will somehow
make for a welcoming atmosphere.

> everybody I talked to about it had some story about being
> harassed by RMS, had witnessed such harassment or heard from or knew
> someone who had been.

... which, even if true, still requires quite a lot of twisting and
forcing and breaking to make it fit the sexism narrative presented as
the motivating factor.

And this is the problem with most of the witchhunting in place.  There
are plenty of allegations circulating all over the Internet, and most of
them fit either or both of two patterns: actual evidence twisted and
forced to fit a false narrative, or repeated hearsay, most likely
fabricated or exaggerated, without a traceable ultimate source.

Which is not to say that there aren't exceptions, the first-hand
narratives.  Those invariably fit in either of two patterns: they look
like smoking gun evidence of very wrongdoing, but they are disputed by
other who were just as much there and are just as trustworthy, or they
paint the known picture of person who has well-known flaws and is indeed
frequently difficult to deal with, but those facts don't help construct
the false boogeyman narrative.

Of course conclusions may be different once one starts picking evidence
that is favorable to make one's case, and disregarding that which
opposes evidence.  Most people would agree that this is not the way to
go to find truth, be it for science or for justice.

> he is against enforcing any anti-harassment policy some GNU
> mailinglist is currently being used to organize a doxing campaign

Doxing and harassment are not welcome, and that post has already been
solved, with his support and before you brought it up, FWIW.

Harassment has been tolerated before, which made this decision a little
more difficult, because the target of an earlier and ongoing harassment
campaign was someone in a position of power in the GNU project itself.
My understanding is that there was a decision to not silence that
discussion, although some moderators had engaged in suppression of
dissenting positions to the (still) ongoing harassment.  As anyone who
studied history can predict, authoritarian positions tend to suppress or
attempt to suppress dissent, while freedom-respecting ones endure it.

If that was a trial run of the sort of leadership that was trying to
replace Richard's, I'd much rather keep the devil we know.  That alleged
witch may have some warts indeed, but they're not quite as ugly as the
prosecutors/judges/executioners's.


> You link to a parody of a request of tens of Free Software foundation
> projects and thousands of Free Software hackers

If truth finding were a matter of headcount, we might still be forced to
believe we're on a flat planet orbited by a star.  But if we're to use
that measuring stick, petitions calling for the FSF to keep Richard at
the FSF board have been signed by more people, translated to more
languages, despite there being more of them, and hosted on platforms
that are less hostile to software freedom, and not being signed multiple
times by the same few people on behalf of multiple organizations.


> Sometimes satire is a way to deal with difficult problems, but I don't
> think that is appropriate here

How about this one instead?
https://avilarenata.medium.com/stallman-d824724b0083

  RMS’ principled stances cause an uncomfortable cognitive dissonance
  for them. They would rather kill a sacrificial Gnu than admit their
  own shortcomings. It is significant that the letter demanding his
  resignation must be signed using Microsoft’s Github platform, and that
  many organizations taking position are openly accepting money from
  Google and other predatory companies.


Or this one?
https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web

  The paradox of Stallman is that while his pointedness and stubbornness
  leads many to dismiss him as a jerk, his stubbornness and
  confrontations are actually rooted in his life-long obsession with
  morality. Though you may disagree, there is ample reason to believe he
  has come to hold his views from a concerted, rigorous, good-faith
  effort to be a voice for good in the world.

  “Stallman… is a hard man to like. He is driven, often impatient. His
  anger can flare at friend as easily as foe. He is uncompromising and
  persistent; patient in both.”
    Lawrence Lessig, Harvard Law Professor, democracy activist

  “Even if I strongly disagree with a position or an idea, an expression
  of an idea, advocacy of an idea, and even if the vast majority of the
  public disagrees with the idea and finds it offensive, that is not a
  justification for suppressing the idea. And it’s not a justification
  for taking away the equal rights of the person who espouses that idea
  including the right to continue holding a tenured position or other
  prominent position for which that person is qualified.”
    Nadine Strossen, Civil Rights Activist, first female President of the ACLU


Maybe this one?
https://medium.com/@whoisylvia/richard-stallman-has-been-vilified-by-those-who-dont-know-him-a3907b25b4c7

  As an active feminist and one who has witnessed much bad behavior
  among tech CEOs over the past 30 years, I think that accusing Richard
  Stallman of not supporting women, gays, or any other minority group is
  false

-- 
Alexandre Oliva, happy hacker  https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
   Free Software Activist         GNU Toolchain Engineer
        Vim, Vi, Voltei pro Emacs -- GNUlius Caesar

  parent reply	other threads:[~2021-03-28 18:25 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 282+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-03-26 20:02 Nathan Sidwell
2021-03-26 20:20 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-26 20:51 ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-03-26 21:18   ` Mark Wielaard
2021-03-26 21:34   ` David Malcolm
2021-03-26 21:09 ` Marek Polacek
2021-03-26 22:53 ` Hi-Angel
2021-03-26 23:50   ` Thomas Rodgers
2021-03-27  7:08     ` Didier Kryn
2021-03-27 21:44       ` Andrea Corallo
2021-03-29 17:28       ` Christophe de Dinechin
2021-03-27 13:38 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-03-27 14:10   ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-03-27 15:45     ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-03-27 17:12   ` Siddhesh Poyarekar
2021-03-27 17:33     ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-28 14:50     ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-03-28 17:25       ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-03-28 19:01       ` Siddhesh Poyarekar
2021-03-28  2:16   ` Óscar Fuentes
2021-03-28  2:27     ` Óscar Fuentes
2021-03-28  4:08       ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-28 12:47   ` Mark Wielaard
2021-03-28 13:19     ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-03-28 14:33     ` JeanHeyd Meneide
2021-03-28 18:13       ` Mark Wielaard
2021-03-28 18:42         ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-28 19:15           ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-03-30  0:20         ` Joseph Myers
2021-03-30  1:32           ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-30  8:20             ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-03-30  2:08           ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-03-30 10:03             ` Mark Wielaard
2021-03-28 17:58     ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-28 18:24     ` Alexandre Oliva [this message]
2021-03-28 23:21     ` Soul Studios
2021-03-29  0:20       ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-29 12:18       ` Richard Kenner
2021-03-29 21:41         ` Soul Studios
2021-03-29 23:32           ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-30  0:09             ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-03-30  0:39               ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-30  1:30                 ` Thomas Rodgers
2021-03-30  1:56                   ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-30  9:14               ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-03-30 11:56               ` Richard Kenner
     [not found]             ` <20210330115515.E8A2033CB0@vlsi1.gnat.com>
2021-03-30 12:33               ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-30  9:28         ` Mark Wielaard
2021-03-30 12:37           ` Richard Kenner
2021-03-27 20:49 ` Martin Liška
2021-03-27 22:10   ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-28 17:48   ` Jeff Law
2021-03-27 22:07 ` Martin Jambor
2021-03-28 15:26 ` Jeff Law
2021-03-29 10:11 ` Richard Biener
2021-03-30  8:25   ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-03-30  9:47     ` Didier Kryn
2021-03-30  9:52       ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-03-30  9:52       ` Didier Kryn
2021-03-30 10:12       ` Andrew Haley
2021-03-30 10:34         ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-03-30 11:12           ` Andrew Haley
2021-03-30 11:32             ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-03-30 10:50 ` Pankaj Jangid
2021-03-30 13:16 ` Giacomo Tesio
2021-03-30 13:30   ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-30 16:50   ` Martin Jambor
2021-03-30 17:10     ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-30 18:30       ` Gabriel Ravier
2021-03-30 18:52         ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-03-30 16:56   ` Markus Böck
2021-03-30 17:07   ` JeanHeyd Meneide
2021-03-30 17:45     ` Joseph Myers
2021-03-30 18:13       ` Christopher Dimech
     [not found]         ` <CAFVAEf2CP87uEuca677MQt4hriQWk5Rn4s9AaQ0yGPUpAeXWpg@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]           ` <trinity-9f325315-c1b2-4fb5-b094-c0fd1534172a-1617140135769@3c-app-mailcom-bs07>
     [not found]             ` <CAFVAEf2QDDXMwAu1vtLpf-Gvqz6i19Jmph3dao9V6iWyysudMg@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]               ` <trinity-b0f59ed8-7545-49d0-979a-b6a5323107e5-1617146046177@3c-app-mailcom-bs07>
2021-03-30 23:56                 ` Andrew Sutton
2021-03-30 18:09     ` JeanHeyd Meneide
2021-03-30 21:28     ` Giacomo Tesio
2021-03-30 22:18       ` Joseph Myers
2021-03-31  8:53       ` Martin Jambor
2021-03-31 13:26         ` Giacomo Tesio
2021-03-31 11:34       ` Mark Wielaard
2021-03-31 12:28         ` Richard Biener
2021-03-31 12:55           ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-03-31 12:59           ` David Edelsohn
2021-03-31 13:21             ` Richard Biener
2021-04-06 10:34               ` Mark Wielaard
2021-03-31 13:46             ` Florian Weimer
2021-03-31 15:23               ` David Edelsohn
2021-03-31 15:43                 ` Richard Biener
2021-03-31 15:43           ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-03-31 12:46         ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-06 22:22           ` GCC association with the FSF Mark Wielaard
2021-04-06 22:28             ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-07 14:04             ` David Malcolm
2021-04-07 17:17               ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-07 17:21                 ` Jeff Law
2021-04-08 15:00                 ` David Brown
2021-04-08 16:43                   ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-08 18:40                     ` David Brown
2021-04-11 21:23                       ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-11 22:41                         ` Nathan Sidwell
2021-04-08 19:30                     ` Gabriel Ravier
2021-04-09 11:48                       ` Pankaj Jangid
2021-04-09 14:47                         ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-09 16:30                         ` Gabriel Ravier
2021-04-10 12:58                           ` Pankaj Jangid
2021-04-10 16:34                             ` David Brown
2021-04-10 18:57                               ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-12  4:17                               ` Pankaj Jangid
2021-04-08 17:22                   ` Giacomo Tesio
2021-04-08 18:26                     ` Thomas Rodgers
2021-04-08 20:26                     ` David Brown
2021-04-11 13:39                   ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-04-11 14:03                     ` David Brown
2021-04-11 14:42                       ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-11 14:21                     ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-08 19:48               ` Mark Wielaard
2021-04-08 20:33                 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-09  6:27                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-04-09 13:08                   ` Paul Koning
2021-04-09 14:08                   ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-11 13:42                 ` Richard Sandiford
2021-04-11 15:06                   ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-11 15:56                     ` David Brown
2021-04-11 16:45                       ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-12  9:32                         ` Richard Biener
2021-04-12 10:27                           ` Thomas Koenig
2021-04-12 21:24                           ` Nathan Sidwell
2021-04-13  6:01                             ` Richard Biener
2021-04-13 14:40                               ` Jeff Law
2021-04-13 16:52                                 ` Thomas Koenig
2021-04-13 17:19                                   ` Jeff Law
2021-04-13 17:32                                     ` Thomas Koenig
2021-04-13 23:41                                       ` Jeff Law
2021-04-14  6:44                                         ` Thomas Koenig
2021-04-14  7:57                                           ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-14 10:03                                             ` Thomas Koenig
2021-04-14 10:19                                               ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-14 12:08                                                 ` Richard Biener
2021-04-14 16:18                                                   ` Jeff Law
2021-04-14 16:35                                                     ` Toon Moene
2021-04-14 16:55                                                       ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-14 17:42                                                         ` Jeff Law
2021-04-14 18:07                                                           ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-14 17:53                                                     ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-15 16:02                                                   ` Jason Merrill
2021-04-15 16:24                                                     ` Richard Biener
2021-04-15 17:42                                                       ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-07 14:51             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-04-07 15:15               ` David Malcolm
2021-04-07 16:24                 ` John Darrington
2021-04-07 17:14                   ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-07 22:34                   ` David Malcolm
2021-04-08  6:45                     ` John Darrington
2021-04-08 11:56                       ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-08 12:08                         ` John Darrington
2021-04-08 14:54                       ` David Malcolm
2021-04-08 18:21                         ` John Darrington
2021-04-08 18:58                           ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-09  1:35                           ` David Malcolm
2021-04-09  6:37                             ` John Darrington
2021-04-09 10:37                               ` David Brown
2021-04-09 14:40                                 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-09 17:01                                   ` David Brown
2021-04-09 18:02                                     ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-09 19:37                                       ` Thomas Rodgers
2021-04-09 21:02                                         ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-09 21:17                                           ` Thomas Rodgers
2021-04-09 21:34                                             ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-10  2:53                                       ` Liu Hao
2021-04-10  3:15                                         ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-10 12:50                                           ` Bronek Kozicki
2021-04-10 14:10                                             ` John Darrington
2021-04-10 15:33                                               ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-10 19:47                                             ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-10 21:45                                               ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-10 23:06                                           ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-04-10 12:27                                       ` David Brown
2021-04-10 13:04                                         ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-10 14:49                                         ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-10 15:17                                           ` Thomas Rodgers
2021-04-10 15:54                                             ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-10 16:14                                               ` Thomas Rodgers
2021-04-10 16:49                                                 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-10 15:59                                             ` David Malcolm
2021-04-10 16:09                                               ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-10 20:10                                             ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-10 22:06                                               ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-11 13:11                                                 ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-11 14:04                                                   ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-10 22:30                                               ` Gerald Pfeifer
2021-04-11 12:05                                                 ` John Darrington
2021-04-11 13:00                                                   ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-11 13:24                                                   ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-11 13:43                                                   ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-11 13:12                                                 ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-11 13:23                                                 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-11 13:26                                                   ` Frosku
2021-04-11 13:32                                                     ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-11 13:30                                                   ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-11 14:25                                                     ` John Darrington
2021-04-11 14:37                                                       ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-11 15:04                                                         ` David Brown
2021-04-12  0:08                                                           ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-04-11 14:17                                                   ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-11 18:28                                                     ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-11 20:04                                                       ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-11 20:45                                                         ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-11 22:30                                                           ` Adhemerval Zanella
2021-04-11 23:06                                                             ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-11 23:33                                                               ` Adhemerval Zanella
2021-04-12  1:43                                                                 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-12  2:15                                                                   ` Siddhesh Poyarekar
2021-04-12  3:13                                                                   ` Adhemerval Zanella
2021-04-12 17:52                                                                     ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-12 18:18                                                                       ` Adhemerval Zanella
2021-04-12  7:25                                                             ` John Darrington
2021-04-12  9:00                                                               ` Siddhesh Poyarekar
2021-04-11 23:13                                                         ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-09 18:26                                     ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-09 18:36                                     ` John Darrington
2021-04-09 20:04                                       ` Giacomo Tesio
2021-04-09 21:40                                         ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-04-09 22:12                                           ` Giacomo Tesio
2021-04-09 22:39                                             ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-10 11:36                                               ` Pankaj Jangid
2021-04-10 12:35                                                 ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-04-10 15:04                                                   ` Thomas Rodgers
2021-04-10 16:01                                                     ` Giacomo Tesio
2021-04-10 16:12                                                       ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-10 19:52                                                       ` Thomas Rodgers
2021-04-10 21:29                                                         ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-10 20:13                                                       ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-10 22:50                                                       ` Gerald Pfeifer
2021-04-11 23:56                                                 ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-04-12  1:03                                                   ` David Edelsohn
2021-04-12  1:34                                                     ` Chris Punches
2021-04-12 10:24                                                       ` Bronek Kozicki
2021-04-12 11:57                                                         ` Bronek Kozicki
2021-04-12 15:25                                                       ` Kalamatee
2021-04-12 21:22                                                       ` Nathan Sidwell
2021-04-12 23:09                                                         ` Chris Punches
2021-04-13  0:29                                                           ` Daniel (Robin) Smith
2021-04-09 22:58                                             ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-09 23:12                                             ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-10 22:33                                         ` Gerald Pfeifer
2021-04-10 12:37                                       ` David Brown
2021-04-10 15:28                                         ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-09 13:00                               ` Christopher Dimech
2021-04-07 18:00                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-03-31 13:28         ` Remove RMS from the GCC Steering Committee Giacomo Tesio
2021-03-31 13:49           ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-03-31 14:47           ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-31 14:18         ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-31 14:22           ` Paul Koning
2021-03-31 14:43             ` Joel Sherrill
2021-03-31 15:49               ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-03-31 18:27                 ` David Edelsohn
2021-04-01 17:07                   ` Nathan Sidwell
2021-04-01 19:19                     ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-04-01 20:33                       ` Joseph Myers
2021-04-01 21:03                         ` Christian Groessler
2021-04-01 21:53                         ` Thomas Koenig
2021-04-01 22:00                           ` Richard Kenner
2021-04-05 15:32                       ` Nathan Sidwell
2021-04-06 10:27                       ` Richard Biener
2021-04-06 11:18                         ` Matthias Klose
2021-04-06 14:14                         ` Siddhesh Poyarekar
2021-04-06 17:17                         ` Ian Lance Taylor
2021-03-31 14:56           ` David Malcolm
2021-03-31 15:43             ` Christopher Dimech
2021-03-31  1:57     ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-03-31  2:51       ` JeanHeyd Meneide
2021-03-31  3:51         ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-03-31  7:14     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-03-31  8:15       ` JeanHeyd Meneide
2021-03-30 15:24 ` Maksim Fomin
2021-03-30 16:20   ` Richard Kenner
2021-03-31 11:08   ` Franz Fehringer
2021-03-30  7:46 mfriley
2021-03-30  8:14 ` Jonathan Wakely
2021-03-30 23:33 Ville Voutilainen

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