From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) by sourceware.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C01D394CC1F for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2021 16:06:36 +0000 (GMT) DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 sourceware.org 2C01D394CC1F X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [213.165.168.94] ([213.165.168.94]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs14.server.lan [172.19.170.182]) (via HTTP); Wed, 14 Apr 2021 18:06:31 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Christopher Dimech To: Nathan Sidwell Cc: "gcc@gcc.gnu.org" Subject: Re: removing toxic emailers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 18:06:31 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <093dbfde-a7b5-a55c-8a03-3e82460bce67@acm.org> References: <20210414131843.GA4138043@thyrsus.com> <093dbfde-a7b5-a55c-8a03-3e82460bce67@acm.org> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:cuCoIh8WU5Z4t2zcFTlt/hGpKUYPLeaCHLeecCaTwA2cue/BvwlHYvui2WRYVR2Hds/SJ aHFzS0TliCE+5ceWZMz0cQRUZctNypTw0+mLOua+aBHZikfdcSpGAii29V38vo0MbhZ6tN+1sst+ kgUMWnhn7zVVR4DTsnhYma8fQqXP7UaW9TgSBYqp5cV3vqwfyMBo+m4fh6PI/1lWaYOM8MJSBSdy NCVm8dbDv/hEkVGanpeokWRNFMYT1hTnXJTe9lizazMpnTkd6KQAKxkRWajyVkGeYnHg1AXckUfF 9E= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:dGR/9chZTmg=:uj6i0vZzZddzu2Wl6bdh+X jlzaTrhEvqOzk7jCynancC3KIUdBgCVD5cJ9ZfpJ53tvo403y6Wi879VrxtTJo+9K/7YloCNw 4ueOYn7/TSKA7l8cjza9Wkbi5+T9rfydydXjzupoo6RyHOCmFIQjM776B1uwahRNqwblfQBO5 4Do43akfVGZvFXhWZKeAt+iC9eh39rWLPOr1P7c2JBh0itM5dDhZNGDWiEIvFcfZkkEEJEfq5 uh/ZA7cihxPxG09dUzH0RFleG5tPMcBpXyQNb4TLyH+PZDThGJwE9cWCtkXUGp7WwLGbFKyqI rN5kEcQWFj83Cq+vyAsY9vGzQXAbm1fg1mhBopHT76dUNMEsHF6OAFt4cwRqRRau7HyG2KNo8 8re9+nGGNGXnOxwiuCiv9SpeozpF16TcqQRVBWKjhotGbW7/zXX1eqSU/6DPPiPq9p+hfycLm Ill0UkAPWEkp6o9qRBHTCcO+d7xGu2WAtaDtgreojsVbJ4c0kzet6c8dc58SmPUYCVUFi5y+5 1GTVBXzXWJlHzYxtCDlCN8nkCf08P/4cSdt9Bs72iNZaWx5HnP7zwE/V2+RmGNXyMmiyM385K jtGXTbsaENYzqYjVmdcZZAF1w1lEAhK4IOrWCCNZ5QCrfNkJlzdgAqk22rzEBdUH1oYyQS1Dv 6QQV9up0FGBkvjUDIDC/a2FpNkGRpNCSjIyvIIHeUWIVe/ioJ06sKI0XWpop19rkrmpbaga6q g1iYdnXcbxUZjWhOxo+58cyc7cN74xVYhbOnzHhDki12ARrbXWfQTGgnAw5XeiysvIAUcDM5J aLROIIwLVx1+rAPfbRetqKihvMc3yOcO61cXSOeH1oiALQ3ACtJYxlV56twlstlkEhLL60Cj2 Ren7lRfyS1EiwQmkq6aFPjiJ27AsySywfn1KqbP1hZprOvldWIycyy3wyviKWQ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3031.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20, DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL, SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_PASS, TXREP autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on server2.sourceware.org X-BeenThere: gcc@gcc.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Gcc mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 16:06:38 -0000 > Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 2:08 AM > From: "Nathan Sidwell" > To: esr@thyrsus.com > Cc: "gcc@gcc.gnu.org" > Subject: Re: removing toxic emailers > > On 4/14/21 9:18 AM, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > > Nathan Sidwell : > >> Do we have a policy about removing list subscribers that send abusive= or > >> other toxic emails? do we have a code of conduct? Searching the wik= i or > >> website finds nothing. The mission statement mentions nothing. > > > > I'm not a GCC insider, but I know a few things about the social > > dynamics of voluntarist subcultures. You might recall I wrote a book > > about that once. > > > > The choice to have a policy for ejecting jerks has serious costs. > > One of those costs is the kind of rancorous dispute that has been > > burning like a brushfire on this list the last few weeks. Another, > > particularly serious for hackers - is that such a policy is hostile to > > autists and others who have poor interaction skills but can ship good > > code. This is a significant percentage of your current and future > > potential contributors, enough that excluding them is a real problem. > > > > Most seriously: the rules, whatever they are, will be gamed by people > > whose objectives are not "ship useful software". You will be fortunate > > if the gamers' objectives are as relatively innocuous as "gain points > > in monkey status competition by beating up funny-colored monkeys"; > > there are much worse cases that have been known to crash even projects > > with nearly as much history and social inertia as this one. > > > > Compared to these costs, the overhead of tolerating a few jerks and > > assholes is pretty much trivial. That's hard to see right now because > > the jerks are visible and the costs of formal policing are > > hypothetical, but I strongly advise you against going down the Code of > > Conduct route regardless of how fashionable that looks right now. I > > have forty years of observer-participant anthropology in intentional > > online communities, beginning with the disintegration of the USENET > > cabal back in the 1980s, telling me that will not end well. > > > > You're better off with an informal system of moderator fiat and > > *without* rules that beg to become a subject of dispute and > > manipulation. A strong norm about off-list behavior and politics being > > out of bounds here is also helpful. > > > > You face a choice between being a community that is about shipping cod= e > > and one that is embroiled in perpetual controversy over who gets to > > play here and on what terms. Choose wisely. > > > > I'd just like to eject the jerks, because they make the place > unwelcoming. I wouldn't associate with them in physical space, I don't > want to associate with them here. And yes, I fully realize there are > other ways I can choose to not associate with them here. > > nathan > > -- > Nathan Sidwell > Everybody knew what you wanted to do with that post from the beginning. Eradication. Glad you said it.