* [Bug libc/2648] localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling
2006-05-09 15:49 [Bug libc/2648] New: localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling mfabian at suse dot de
@ 2006-05-09 15:50 ` mfabian at suse dot de
2006-05-09 15:53 ` mfabian at suse dot de
` (15 subsequent siblings)
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From: mfabian at suse dot de @ 2006-05-09 15:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: glibc-bugs
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread* [Bug libc/2648] localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling
2006-05-09 15:49 [Bug libc/2648] New: localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling mfabian at suse dot de
2006-05-09 15:50 ` [Bug libc/2648] " mfabian at suse dot de
@ 2006-05-09 15:53 ` mfabian at suse dot de
2006-05-09 15:53 ` mfabian at suse dot de
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From: mfabian at suse dot de @ 2006-05-09 15:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: glibc-bugs
------- Additional Comments From mfabian at suse dot de 2006-05-09 15:53 -------
The change done in http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=388
for Polish would be good for Spanish as well.
And not only for Spanish but probably for most, if not all locales.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread* [Bug libc/2648] localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling
2006-05-09 15:49 [Bug libc/2648] New: localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling mfabian at suse dot de
2006-05-09 15:50 ` [Bug libc/2648] " mfabian at suse dot de
2006-05-09 15:53 ` mfabian at suse dot de
@ 2006-05-09 15:53 ` mfabian at suse dot de
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From: mfabian at suse dot de @ 2006-05-09 15:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: glibc-bugs
------- Additional Comments From mfabian at suse dot de 2006-05-09 15:52 -------
See also:
http://sources.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=374
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread* [Bug libc/2648] localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling
2006-05-09 15:49 [Bug libc/2648] New: localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling mfabian at suse dot de
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2006-05-09 15:53 ` mfabian at suse dot de
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From: mfabian at suse dot de @ 2006-05-09 15:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: glibc-bugs
------- Additional Comments From mfabian at suse dot de 2006-05-09 15:55 -------
There is some information concerning this problem in
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=152778
Unfortunately this bug is not publicly readable.
Therefore I am going to paste the relevant information from
novell bugzilla here.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread* [Bug libc/2648] localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling
2006-05-09 15:49 [Bug libc/2648] New: localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling mfabian at suse dot de
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
2006-05-09 15:56 ` mfabian at suse dot de
@ 2006-05-09 16:00 ` mfabian at suse dot de
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From: mfabian at suse dot de @ 2006-05-09 16:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: glibc-bugs
------- Additional Comments From mfabian at suse dot de 2006-05-09 16:00 -------
Original comment in the Novell bugzilla: When LC_COLLATE=es_ES, the sort command ignores spaces in its sorting algorithm, so it sorts MAS PUJADAS, FRANCESC after MASOLIVER GARCIA, JAIME instead of before, even though the comments in /usr/share/i18n/locales/es_ES indicate that the sorting algorithm for this locales should take spaces into account (and sort them before punctuation characters, numbers and letters). This spanish customer is not using LC_COLLATE="POSIX" because the sort command gives incorrect results when dealing with characters with spanish accents so he has to use LC_COLLATE="es_ES.UTF-8" which is ignoring spaces. Even /usr/share/i18n/locales/es_ES states: LC_COLLATE % Base collation scheme: 1994-03-22 % Ordering algorithm: % 1. Spaces and hyphen (but not soft % hyphen) before punctuation % characters, punctuation characters % before numbers, % numbers before letters. I also tested it with every other language setting and the results are always the same: mortlach:~ # export LC_COLLATE="POSIX" mortlach:~ # sort demo AB CDESY ABC DETZ ABCD ETX mortlach:~ # export LC_COLLATE="en_GB.UTF-8" mortlach:~ # sort demo AB CDESY ABCD ETX ABC DETZ mortlach:~ # export LC_COLLATE="de_DE.UTF-8" mortlach:~ # sort demo AB CDESY ABCD ETX ABC DETZ So the question is why LC_COLLATE="POSIX" behaves differently to any other language setting, if this is a feature where is it documented and why is it so? It doesn't make sence that LC_COLLATE="POSIX" behaves different to the English settings (UK & US) which on the other hand behave exactly the same way as any other language setting so there must be a reason why this is so
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread* [Bug libc/2648] localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling
2006-05-09 15:49 [Bug libc/2648] New: localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling mfabian at suse dot de
` (4 preceding siblings ...)
2006-05-09 16:00 ` mfabian at suse dot de
@ 2006-05-09 16:01 ` mfabian at suse dot de
2006-05-09 16:01 ` mfabian at suse dot de
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From: mfabian at suse dot de @ 2006-05-09 16:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: glibc-bugs
------- Additional Comments From mfabian at suse dot de 2006-05-09 16:00 -------
Original comment in the Novell bugzilla:
When LC_COLLATE=es_ES, the sort command ignores spaces in its sorting
algorithm, so it sorts
MAS PUJADAS, FRANCESC
after
MASOLIVER GARCIA, JAIME
instead of before, even though the comments in
/usr/share/i18n/locales/es_ES indicate that the sorting algorithm for this
locales should take spaces into account (and sort them before punctuation
characters, numbers and letters).
This spanish customer is not using LC_COLLATE="POSIX" because the sort command
gives incorrect results when dealing with characters with spanish
accents so he has to use LC_COLLATE="es_ES.UTF-8" which is ignoring spaces.
Even /usr/share/i18n/locales/es_ES states:
LC_COLLATE
% Base collation scheme: 1994-03-22
% Ordering algorithm:
% 1. Spaces and hyphen (but not soft
% hyphen) before punctuation
% characters, punctuation characters
% before numbers,
% numbers before letters.
I also tested it with every other language setting and the results are always
the same:
mortlach:~ # export LC_COLLATE="POSIX"
mortlach:~ # sort demo
AB CDESY
ABC DETZ
ABCD ETX
mortlach:~ # export LC_COLLATE="en_GB.UTF-8"
mortlach:~ # sort demo
AB CDESY
ABCD ETX
ABC DETZ
mortlach:~ # export LC_COLLATE="de_DE.UTF-8"
mortlach:~ # sort demo
AB CDESY
ABCD ETX
ABC DETZ
So the question is why LC_COLLATE="POSIX" behaves differently to any other
language setting, if this is a feature where is it documented and why is it so?
It doesn't make sence that LC_COLLATE="POSIX" behaves different to the English
settings (UK & US) which on the other hand behave exactly the same way as any
other language setting so there must be a reason why this is so
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread* [Bug libc/2648] localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling
2006-05-09 15:49 [Bug libc/2648] New: localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling mfabian at suse dot de
` (5 preceding siblings ...)
2006-05-09 16:01 ` mfabian at suse dot de
@ 2006-05-09 16:01 ` mfabian at suse dot de
2006-05-09 16:02 ` mfabian at suse dot de
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From: mfabian at suse dot de @ 2006-05-09 16:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: glibc-bugs
------- Additional Comments From mfabian at suse dot de 2006-05-09 16:01 -------
Sorry for the bad formatting in comment #4, apparently
I have a problem with my browser.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread* [Bug libc/2648] localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling
2006-05-09 15:49 [Bug libc/2648] New: localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling mfabian at suse dot de
` (6 preceding siblings ...)
2006-05-09 16:01 ` mfabian at suse dot de
@ 2006-05-09 16:02 ` mfabian at suse dot de
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From: mfabian at suse dot de @ 2006-05-09 16:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: glibc-bugs
[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
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------- Additional Comments From mfabian at suse dot de 2006-05-09 16:02 -------
Comment from Markus Kuhn from the Novell Bugzilla:
Comment #4 From Markus Kuhn 2006-03-21 11:24 MST
[ ] Private
Glibc implements a 4-pass sorting algorithm, something like the Unicode
Collation Algorithm defined at
http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr10/
or equivalently the International Standard Ordering defined in ISO 14651. The
SPACE is not ignored, it affects the sorting order only with lower priority
than
- the base characters
- accents
- whether base characters are uppercase or lower case
At level 4, space is treated like punctuation.
The Unicode sorting algorithm has lots of options. If you look at
http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr10/#Variable_Weighting
you will see that variable weighting options are avaliable for characters such
as SPACE. Perhaps the UTF-8 locales were configured to use something equivalent
to the "blanked" option, whereas what the user expects here is the
"non-ignorable" option?
It is up to the locale designer to chose these options, and I suspect the
necessary discussion on which options are best here has never taken place.
The culprit is probably in the file
/usr/share/i18n/locales/iso14651_t1
the line
<U0020> IGNORE;IGNORE;IGNORE;<U0020> # 32 <SP>
which says that SPACE is sorted at level 4 only, i.e. with lowest priority. I
don't think this is a particularly good choice.
File format spec:
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/volatile/ISO-14652.pdf
People like Ulrich Drepper, Alain LaBonté, Keld J. Simonsen would know more on
the origins of this.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread* [Bug libc/2648] localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling
2006-05-09 15:49 [Bug libc/2648] New: localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling mfabian at suse dot de
` (7 preceding siblings ...)
2006-05-09 16:02 ` mfabian at suse dot de
@ 2006-05-09 16:05 ` mfabian at suse dot de
2006-05-10 15:18 ` drepper at redhat dot com
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From: mfabian at suse dot de @ 2006-05-09 16:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: glibc-bugs
------- Additional Comments From mfabian at suse dot de 2006-05-09 16:04 -------
Another comment by Markus Kuhn:
Comment #11 From Markus Kuhn 2006-04-10 03:49 MST
[ ] Private
Options:
a) Tell the customer that you are sorry that glibc does not at present offer
what he expects, and that we are unable to fix this ourselved without breaking
compatibility with every other glibc-based distribution. One possible
customer-side workaround is to replace SP with NBSP (0xa0) before sorting. NBSP
does already seem to get sorted in the way in which the customer expects SP to
be sorted.
b) Patch in /usr/share/i18n/locales/iso14651_t1 the line
<U0020> IGNORE;IGNORE;IGNORE;<U0020> # 32 <SP>
to something like
<U0020> <U0020>;<BAS>;<MIN>;IGNORE
to make SP sort like NBSP does already
WARNING: This obviously breaks compatibility with other Linux distributions.
c) Fund a proper research project aimed as cleaning up the mess that the
collation implementation and configuration is at present in glibc and POSIX,
possibly also investigating user needs and developing a new API for customizing
the sorting order at run-time via environment variables and/or new library
calls.
The reported propblem is only one symptom of the fact that the collating code
(and perhaps even the underlying POSIX spec!) is not really finished and is at
present not properly maintained.
Option c) is perhaps what really should be done, but needs far wider discussion
(beyond Novell) and escalation to management, because someone will have to
spend many weeks (if not months) on sorting this entire issue out properly.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread* [Bug libc/2648] localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling
2006-05-09 15:49 [Bug libc/2648] New: localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling mfabian at suse dot de
` (8 preceding siblings ...)
2006-05-09 16:05 ` mfabian at suse dot de
@ 2006-05-10 15:18 ` drepper at redhat dot com
2007-02-17 18:44 ` drepper at redhat dot com
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16 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: drepper at redhat dot com @ 2006-05-10 15:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: glibc-bugs
------- Additional Comments From drepper at redhat dot com 2006-05-10 15:18 -------
It's complete BS to say that spaces are mishandled in most locales. This was
appropriately researched by the ISO 14651 working group and I trust those people
more than any random user.
It is further completely unacceptable to open one bug and complain about a
million things.
To get anything changed, you have to provide statemsnts from the language
authorities about the proposed change. If you cannot provide this there
obviously is at least room for discussion and no change is the right approach.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread* [Bug libc/2648] localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling
2006-05-09 15:49 [Bug libc/2648] New: localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling mfabian at suse dot de
` (9 preceding siblings ...)
2006-05-10 15:18 ` drepper at redhat dot com
@ 2007-02-17 18:44 ` drepper at redhat dot com
2007-02-23 15:26 ` mfabian at suse dot de
` (5 subsequent siblings)
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From: drepper at redhat dot com @ 2007-02-17 18:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: glibc-bugs
------- Additional Comments From drepper at redhat dot com 2007-02-17 18:44 -------
No reply in 9 months. Closing.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread* [Bug libc/2648] localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling
2006-05-09 15:49 [Bug libc/2648] New: localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling mfabian at suse dot de
` (10 preceding siblings ...)
2007-02-17 18:44 ` drepper at redhat dot com
@ 2007-02-23 15:26 ` mfabian at suse dot de
2007-02-23 15:53 ` mfabian at suse dot de
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From: mfabian at suse dot de @ 2007-02-23 15:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: glibc-bugs
------- Additional Comments From mfabian at suse dot de 2007-02-23 15:26 -------
By the way, the original bug report in the novell bugzilla is
publicly readable now:
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=152778
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread* [Bug libc/2648] localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling
2006-05-09 15:49 [Bug libc/2648] New: localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling mfabian at suse dot de
` (11 preceding siblings ...)
2007-02-23 15:26 ` mfabian at suse dot de
@ 2007-02-23 15:53 ` mfabian at suse dot de
2007-02-24 9:00 ` Markus dot Kuhn at cl dot cam dot ac dot uk
` (3 subsequent siblings)
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From: mfabian at suse dot de @ 2007-02-23 15:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: glibc-bugs
------- Additional Comments From mfabian at suse dot de 2007-02-23 15:53 -------
Why did you fix the similar problem in Polish locale reported in
http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=388
?
Was the information supplied in that bug report so much better?
And what about the comment in /usr/share/i18n/locales/es_ES:
LC_COLLATE
% Base collation scheme: 1994-03-22
% Ordering algorithm:
% 1. Spaces and hyphen (but not soft
% hyphen) before punctuation
% characters, punctuation characters
% before numbers,
% numbers before letters.
This comment doesn't agree with the current implementation, does it?
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2006-05-09 15:49 [Bug libc/2648] New: localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling mfabian at suse dot de
` (12 preceding siblings ...)
2007-02-23 15:53 ` mfabian at suse dot de
@ 2007-02-24 9:00 ` Markus dot Kuhn at cl dot cam dot ac dot uk
2007-02-27 21:41 ` barbier at linuxfr dot org
` (2 subsequent siblings)
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From: Markus dot Kuhn at cl dot cam dot ac dot uk @ 2007-02-24 9:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: glibc-bugs
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread* [Bug libc/2648] localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling
2006-05-09 15:49 [Bug libc/2648] New: localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling mfabian at suse dot de
` (13 preceding siblings ...)
2007-02-24 9:00 ` Markus dot Kuhn at cl dot cam dot ac dot uk
@ 2007-02-27 21:41 ` barbier at linuxfr dot org
2007-10-15 3:49 ` drepper at redhat dot com
2008-04-08 0:55 ` drepper at redhat dot com
16 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: barbier at linuxfr dot org @ 2007-02-27 21:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: glibc-bugs
------- Additional Comments From barbier at linuxfr dot org 2007-02-27 21:41 -------
> Why did you fix the similar problem in Polish locale reported in
> http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=388
> ?
>
> Was the information supplied in that bug report so much better?
In BZ388, bug submitter provided references. In your bug report,
there is none. One can argue than native speakers know collation
rules for their language, but at least for French this is obviously
wrong ;)
> And what about the comment in /usr/share/i18n/locales/es_ES:
>
> % Ordering algorithm:
> % 1. Spaces and hyphen (but not soft
> % hyphen) before punctuation
> % characters, punctuation characters
> % before numbers,
> % numbers before letters.
>
> This comment doesn't agree with the current implementation, does it?
Right, AFAICT these collation rules came from an earlier draft of
iso14651_t1, coefficients for U0020 had been fixed but this comment
has not been updated.
Anyway I came to a bookshop today and had a look at a Spanish
dictionary. Spaces were significant in this dictionary:
san
san bernardo
sana-something, I do not remember the exact word
IMHO you can try to either find references as in BZ388, or give
detailed references (ie. not as I did above, I had no pen to write
down details) to several well known Spanish dictionaries which sort
words as you describe.
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2006-05-09 15:49 [Bug libc/2648] New: localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling mfabian at suse dot de
` (14 preceding siblings ...)
2007-02-27 21:41 ` barbier at linuxfr dot org
@ 2007-10-15 3:49 ` drepper at redhat dot com
2008-04-08 0:55 ` drepper at redhat dot com
16 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: drepper at redhat dot com @ 2007-10-15 3:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: glibc-bugs
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2006-05-09 15:49 [Bug libc/2648] New: localedata/locales/es_ES has incorrect LC_COLLATE <space> handling mfabian at suse dot de
` (15 preceding siblings ...)
2007-10-15 3:49 ` drepper at redhat dot com
@ 2008-04-08 0:55 ` drepper at redhat dot com
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From: drepper at redhat dot com @ 2008-04-08 0:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: glibc-bugs
------- Additional Comments From drepper at redhat dot com 2008-04-08 00:55 -------
No reactions.
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