[Bug localedata/11630] New: Odd time separator in Swedish time format for sv_SE

[Bug localedata/11630] New: Odd time separator in Swedish time format for sv_SE

[m4rh at stjernholm dot org]

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Libc is currently using "." as separator in time stamps in the sv_SE locale. I
think it should be ":" instead, i.e. "HH:MM:SS" instead of "HH.MM.SS".

Albeit both notations occur in Swedish, the one with period is much more
uncommon and looks slightly odd to a native Swede like me, especially when used
with second precision.

To justify that ":" is a more common separator, I did a brief survey of the 20
most popular web sites accessed from Sweden (according to
http://www.alexa.com/topsites/countries/SE):

google.se:
Example: "den 23 maj 2010 16:28:23 GMT" - click "Cachad" (cached) on any hit.

facebook.com:
Not checked, as I lack an account and cannot find any time stamp on the front page.

google.com:
Not in Swedish.

youtube.com:
Cannot find any time stamps (only durations).

aftonbladet.se:
Example: "21:00 Aktuellt" - from the TV listings at the bottom on the front page.

live.com:
Not checked since an account needed, and no there is no time stamp on the front
page.

wikipedia.org:
Example: "september 2006 kl. 08.19 (CEST)" - from some article on
sv.wikipedia.org, click "diskussion" (discussion) and see time stamps after
comments. It is not unlikely that these time stamps are generated by the libc
I'm filing this bug against, though.

blocket.se:
Example: "Idag 20:38" - click on any area on the Swedish map; there are time
stamps in front of the ads that appear.

blogger.com:
Example: "2008-12-11 21:14" - from a random blog
http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2129541161917078962/posts/default.

yahoo.com:
Could not find any time stamps on se.yahoo.com.

msn.com:
Example: "2010-05-24 21:09" - go to se.msn.com and choose some news article.

foreningssparbanken.se:
Example: "Valutakurserna uppdateras 11.30 varje dag." -
http://www.swedbank.se/privat/rantor-priser-och-kurser/index.htm.

hitta.se:
Example: "Start: 2010-04-19 21:00" - choose "Trafik" (traffic) and zoom in on
one of the traffic events.

expressen.se:
Example: "21:00 CSI" - scroll down to the TV listings at the bottom of the page.

eniro.se:
Example: "23:25" - choose "Köp & Sälj" (buy & sell), see the "Senast inlagda
annonser" (most recent ads) list.

twitter.com:
Not available in Swedish.

dn.se:
Example: "20:59" - see the "Senaste nytt" (latest news) list to the right.

blogg.se:
Example: "2010-05-24 | 19:55:44" - choose the first blog that comes up.

wordpress.com:
Example: "24 maj 2010 kl 20:17" - choose some blog from sv.wordpress.com.

thepiratebay.org:
Example: "Senast uppdaterad 08:24:04." - on the front page after selecting
"Svenska" as language preference.

To summarize, 12 of these popular sites use HH:MM or HH:MM:SS, while 2 use HH.MM.

To this I can add that a certain other market leading commercial OS uses
HH:MM:SS in its Swedish locale (even though the separator is configurable there,
only ":" is among the alternatives in the version I checked).

-- 
           Summary: Odd time separator in Swedish time format for sv_SE
           Product: glibc
           Version: 2.11
            Status: NEW
          Severity: normal
          Priority: P2
         Component: localedata
        AssignedTo: libc-locales at sources dot redhat dot com
        ReportedBy: m4rh at stjernholm dot org
                CC: glibc-bugs at sources dot redhat dot com


http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=11630

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Re: [Bug localedata/11630] New: Odd time separator in Swedish time format for sv_SE

[H. Peter Anvin]

On 05/24/2010 12:42 PM, m4rh at stjernholm dot org wrote:
> Libc is currently using "." as separator in time stamps in the sv_SE locale. I
> think it should be ":" instead, i.e. "HH:MM:SS" instead of "HH.MM.SS".
> 
> Albeit both notations occur in Swedish, the one with period is much more
> uncommon and looks slightly odd to a native Swede like me, especially when used
> with second precision.

Last I looked, period was the recommended style in all Swedish styleguides.

The closest thing to official is probably "Svenska skrivregler" by the
Svenska Språkrådet, which isn't available online, but there is a style
guide ("Myndigheternas skrivregler") for use by government institutions at:

http://www.sweden.gov.se/sb/d/253/a/33329

Section 9.2 clearly states that the proper separator is ".".

":" is presumably an English influence via ISO 8601 and digital clocks.

	-hpa

[Bug localedata/11630] Odd time separator in Swedish time format for sv_SE

[pasky at suse dot cz]

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------- Additional Comments From hpa at zytor dot com  2010-05-25 00:03 -------
Subject: Re:  New: Odd time separator in Swedish time
 format for sv_SE

On 05/24/2010 12:42 PM, m4rh at stjernholm dot org wrote:
> Libc is currently using "." as separator in time stamps in the sv_SE locale. I
> think it should be ":" instead, i.e. "HH:MM:SS" instead of "HH.MM.SS".
> 
> Albeit both notations occur in Swedish, the one with period is much more
> uncommon and looks slightly odd to a native Swede like me, especially when used
> with second precision.

Last I looked, period was the recommended style in all Swedish styleguides.

The closest thing to official is probably "Svenska skrivregler" by the
Svenska Språkrådet, which isn't available online, but there is a style
guide ("Myndigheternas skrivregler") for use by government institutions at:

http://www.sweden.gov.se/sb/d/253/a/33329

Section 9.2 clearly states that the proper separator is ".".

":" is presumably an English influence via ISO 8601 and digital clocks.

	-hpa

------- Additional Comments From pasky at suse dot cz  2010-05-25 10:39 -------
I'm closing this bug now as it appears the change is contentious:

Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 17:03:29 -0700
From: "H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com>
Subject: Re: [Bug localedata/11630] New: Odd time separator in Swedish time
format for sv_SE

Last I looked, period was the recommended style in all Swedish styleguides.

The closest thing to official is probably "Svenska skrivregler" by the
Svenska Spr&#229;kr&#229;det, which isn't available online, but there is a style
guide ("Myndigheternas skrivregler") for use by government institutions at:

http://www.sweden.gov.se/sb/d/253/a/33329

Section 9.2 clearly states that the proper separator is ".".

":" is presumably an English influence via ISO 8601 and digital clocks.

        -hpa


-- 
           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|NEW                         |RESOLVED
         Resolution|                            |INVALID


http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=11630

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[Bug localedata/11630] Odd time separator in Swedish time format for sv_SE

[m4rh at stjernholm dot org]

------- Additional Comments From m4rh at stjernholm dot org  2010-05-25 14:10 -------
Figures there would be some "official" writing guidelines that odd format was
taken from.

English influence or not, ":" is defacto much more common in modern everyday
Swedish usage, which a survey of popular Swedish content such as the one I did
readily shows. The purpose of the locale is presumably to use formatting most
Swedes feel comfortable with, and in that perspective common/defacto/established
usage arguably carry more weight than some guideline document, in case of conflict.

A survey of popular usage can of course be done with much more care to avoid bad
measurements such as web sites with poor/sloppy language treatment, but I can
point out that three of them (aftonbladet.se, expressen.se, and dn.se)
correspond to big national news papers, which as such do pay attention to this
sort of thing.

-- 
           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|RESOLVED                    |REOPENED
         Resolution|INVALID                     |


http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=11630

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[Bug localedata/11630] Odd time separator in Swedish time format for sv_SE

[pasky at suse dot cz]

------- Additional Comments From pasky at suse dot cz  2010-05-25 16:43 -------
In the past, we had trouble with locale changes that were controversial, thus in
case there are dissenting voices and the issue is ambiguous (e.g. common usage
vs. standardization), we prefer to seek consensus. This is not to say this bug
report should turn into a discussion forum, but you should first start a
discussion among other Swedish GNU users in the appropriate venue and gathering
feedback before pushing this further.

For starters, it would be good to have a feedback from the original locale
author (if you can contact them) and the GNU sv translation team
(http://translationproject.org/team/sv.html).

-- 
           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|REOPENED                    |WAITING


http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=11630

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[Bug localedata/11630] Odd time separator in Swedish time format for sv_SE

[fweimer at redhat dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=11630

Florian Weimer <fweimer at redhat dot com> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Flags|                            |security-

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[Bug localedata/11630] Odd time separator in Swedish time format for sv_SE

[menthos at menthos dot com]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=11630

Christian Rose <menthos at menthos dot com> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
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                 CC|                            |menthos at menthos dot com

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[Bug localedata/11630] Odd time separator in Swedish time format for sv_SE

[drepper.fsp at gmail dot com]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=11630

Ulrich Drepper <drepper.fsp at gmail dot com> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|WAITING                     |RESOLVED
                 CC|                            |drepper.fsp at gmail dot
                   |                            |com
         Resolution|                            |WONTFIX

--- Comment #7 from Ulrich Drepper <drepper.fsp at gmail dot com> 2011-05-09 23:29:27 UTC ---
No consensus here.  I certainly won't make a call.  In case there is no
consensus the existing data stays as it provides the least amount of surprises.
 People who disagree can install their own locale.  This is why localedef is
standardized, users are supposed to be able to install additional/changed
locales.

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[Bug localedata/11630] Odd time separator in Swedish time format for sv_SE

[msv at kth dot se]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=11630

Mårten Svantesson <msv at kth dot se> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
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                 CC|                            |msv at kth dot se

--- Comment #5 from keld at keldix dot com <keld at keldix dot com> 2010-05-25 18:11:51 UTC ---
Subject: Re:  Odd time separator in Swedish time
 format for sv_SE

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 04:43:21PM -0000, pasky at suse dot cz wrote:
> 
> ------- Additional Comments From pasky at suse dot cz  2010-05-25 16:43 -------
> In the past, we had trouble with locale changes that were controversial, thus in
> case there are dissenting voices and the issue is ambiguous (e.g. common usage
> vs. standardization), we prefer to seek consensus. This is not to say this bug
> report should turn into a discussion forum, but you should first start a
> discussion among other Swedish GNU users in the appropriate venue and gathering
> feedback before pushing this further.
> 
> For starters, it would be good to have a feedback from the original locale
> author (if you can contact them) and the GNU sv translation team
> (http://translationproject.org/team/sv.html).

I may be be the original locale author. I was at least the initial author
of the swedish locale for glibc. 

I am not Swedish, but I am Danish, and live close to the Swedish border.
There is some discussion about ":" vs "." - and I have seen the
same discussion in Norway. And in Denmark. Some prefer the ":" some the "."
- language authorities tend to prefer the ".", while official standardization
organizations tend to prefer the ':'. 

The official orthography
specification, "Myndigheternas skrivregler" http://www.regeringen.se/sb/d/108/a/33329 -
has the following specification:

> 9.2.2 Timmar, minuter och sekunder
> Om tiden ska anges i timmar, minuter och sekunder skriver man på
> följande sätt: Larmet registrerades kl. 14.02.36. Bråkdelar av en se-
> kund skriver man på detta sätt: Förloppet tog 2,25 sekunder.

In my translation  it shows that the "." is the delimiter for  hours and minutes.

In the entry in ISO 15897, which contains the ISO collection of POSIX locales,
the narrative spec says: http://std.dkuug.dk/cultreg/registrations/narrative/sv_SE,_1.0
The source is the official Swedish Institute for Standardization SIS, in its department
for Information Technology Standardization, ITS:

> Time before noon:
> 10:20 or 10.20
> 
> Time after noon:
> 17:40 or 17.40 

So both forms are specified. The colon form is specified first.

There is a Swedish standard for numerical specification of date and time, which
is based on ISO 8601. I think they have some deviations here, but not
in the hour:minute:second delimiters.

I think that both forms are understood and in widespread use in Sweden. 

I personally prefer the ":" because of the conflict with "." usage as
decimal point - inherited from American culture - which is threathening the usage
of the "," as the decimal delimiter, in most of continental Europe.

But I do not have a conclusion here. Do we follow official language authorities,
or do we follow official standardization authorities, or do we follow
some opinion amongst native translators of Open Source Software, or do we follow
users?  Or do we try to avoid to many changes in glibc?

Best regards
Keld


--- Comment #6 from Mårten Svantesson <msv at kth dot se> 2011-03-25 10:17:08 UTC ---
Swedish is not a standardised language. So what should be considered the
correct usage is what people use the most. In this case colon is certainly used
the most as a separator when writing time.

As mentioned different institutions in Sweden have given different opinions in
the matter, so they are useless in deciding the matter.

The point for me is that I can't use glibc to localise time since it is
incorrect for Swedish.

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