* GNU toolchain web page @ 2018-01-01 0:00 Iain Sandoe 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell 0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: Iain Sandoe @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: carlos; +Cc: gnutools-advocacy Hi Carlos, I am interested in contributing to any content / design discussion for the ‘overall toolchain’ web page. Do you intend to develop it (pre-initial release) on some collaborative platform? .. also test post to the new list. cheers Iain ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 GNU toolchain web page Iain Sandoe @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Carlos O'Donell @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: iains.gcc; +Cc: gnutools-advocacy On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 8:21 AM Iain Sandoe <iains.gcc@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Carlos, > I am interested in contributing to any content / design discussion for the ‘overall toolchain’ web page. > Do you intend to develop it (pre-initial release) on some collaborative platform? > .. also test post to the new list. I have two enablement goals. (1) A website to unify major toolchain projects and promote an "entire toolchain" view with "Latest release" type of information. (2) A website that provides new contributors with a checklist of things they need to do and walks them through each step. I'd like to be able to do some deep integration with (2), like registering for bugzilla accounts (with human vetting, or state of the art captcha). With those two goals in mind I need to find a host for this site, maybe sourceware.org. Then I need to see what kind of server side tech we can use for this, like will we be able to use django on sourceware for this new website? So if I had to take a first step it would be to create a Google doc with a project plan for (1) and the pages we need to create for that. Cheers, Carlos. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 2 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy Here's an initial attempt at a placeholder for the website hosted through Github pages and built using Bootstrap. https://edelsohn.github.io/gnutools/ I'm happy to add people people with web development knowledge to the repository. - David On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 9:12 PM Carlos O'Donell <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 8:21 AM Iain Sandoe <iains.gcc@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Carlos, > > I am interested in contributing to any content / design discussion for the ‘overall toolchain’ web page. > > Do you intend to develop it (pre-initial release) on some collaborative platform? > > .. also test post to the new list. > > I have two enablement goals. > > (1) A website to unify major toolchain projects and promote an "entire > toolchain" view with "Latest release" type of information. > > (2) A website that provides new contributors with a checklist of > things they need to do and walks them through each step. > > I'd like to be able to do some deep integration with (2), like > registering for bugzilla accounts (with human vetting, or state of the > art captcha). > > With those two goals in mind I need to find a host for this site, > maybe sourceware.org. > > Then I need to see what kind of server side tech we can use for this, > like will we be able to use django on sourceware for this new website? > > So if I had to take a first step it would be to create a Google doc > with a project plan for (1) and the pages we need to create for that. > > Cheers, > Carlos. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell 0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy I propose that we want to target two different audiences and, as a stretch goal, want two distinct web sites. 1) A focal point for users and developers to access information. 2) A marketing landing page with testimonials, like a startup e-commerce landing page. They can be combined, but each has a different style and feel. - David On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 8:56 PM David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote: > > Here's an initial attempt at a placeholder for the website hosted > through Github pages and built using Bootstrap. > > https://edelsohn.github.io/gnutools/ > > I'm happy to add people people with web development knowledge to the repository. > > - David > > On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 9:12 PM Carlos O'Donell <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote: > > > > On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 8:21 AM Iain Sandoe <iains.gcc@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi Carlos, > > > I am interested in contributing to any content / design discussion for the ‘overall toolchain’ web page. > > > Do you intend to develop it (pre-initial release) on some collaborative platform? > > > .. also test post to the new list. > > > > I have two enablement goals. > > > > (1) A website to unify major toolchain projects and promote an "entire > > toolchain" view with "Latest release" type of information. > > > > (2) A website that provides new contributors with a checklist of > > things they need to do and walks them through each step. > > > > I'd like to be able to do some deep integration with (2), like > > registering for bugzilla accounts (with human vetting, or state of the > > art captcha). > > > > With those two goals in mind I need to find a host for this site, > > maybe sourceware.org. > > > > Then I need to see what kind of server side tech we can use for this, > > like will we be able to use django on sourceware for this new website? > > > > So if I had to take a first step it would be to create a Google doc > > with a project plan for (1) and the pages we need to create for that. > > > > Cheers, > > Carlos. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: Carlos O'Donell @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Edelsohn; +Cc: iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 10:16 AM David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote: > > I propose that we want to target two different audiences and, as a > stretch goal, want two distinct web sites. > > 1) A focal point for users and developers to access information. > > 2) A marketing landing page with testimonials, like a startup > e-commerce landing page. > > They can be combined, but each has a different style and feel. A high level marketing landing page with slick graphics feels like it should be the first thing you see. Followed by a "developer" button for developers to jump into a sub-page. However... some companies split this in two. See for example: https://www.wix.com/ vs. https://dev.wix.com/ There is almost no overlap between the two sites. You have to scroll to the very bottom of the first page and click "Developers" under "Product" get to dev.wix.com, *but* Google searches can take you directly to dev.wix.com. We have registered gnu.tools, so we could also use dev.gnu.tools to take you to a developer facing page vs. www.gnu.tools which takes you to a marketing landing page? Cheers, Carlos. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell 0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy We also have registered gnutools.org and gnutoolchain.org. Maybe gnutools.org for dev and gnutoolchain.org for marketing. - David On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 1:27 PM Carlos O'Donell <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 10:16 AM David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > I propose that we want to target two different audiences and, as a > > stretch goal, want two distinct web sites. > > > > 1) A focal point for users and developers to access information. > > > > 2) A marketing landing page with testimonials, like a startup > > e-commerce landing page. > > > > They can be combined, but each has a different style and feel. > > A high level marketing landing page with slick graphics feels like it > should be the first thing you see. > > Followed by a "developer" button for developers to jump into a sub-page. > > However... some companies split this in two. > > See for example: > > https://www.wix.com/ > > vs. > > https://dev.wix.com/ > > There is almost no overlap between the two sites. You have to scroll > to the very bottom of the first page and click "Developers" under > "Product" get to dev.wix.com, *but* Google searches can take you > directly to dev.wix.com. > > We have registered gnu.tools, so we could also use dev.gnu.tools to > take you to a developer facing page vs. www.gnu.tools which takes you > to a marketing landing page? > > Cheers, > Carlos. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Biener 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 0 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Carlos O'Donell @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Edelsohn; +Cc: iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy I'd rather see a consistent use and clear developer naming. e.g. dev.gnutools.org / dev.gnu.tools / dev.gnutoolchain.org = Developer landing page. www.gnutools.org / www.gnu.tools / www.gnutoolchain.org = Marketing landing page. Thoughts? On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 1:33 PM David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote: > > We also have registered gnutools.org and gnutoolchain.org. > > Maybe gnutools.org for dev and gnutoolchain.org for marketing. > > - David > > On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 1:27 PM Carlos O'Donell <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote: > > > > On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 10:16 AM David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > I propose that we want to target two different audiences and, as a > > > stretch goal, want two distinct web sites. > > > > > > 1) A focal point for users and developers to access information. > > > > > > 2) A marketing landing page with testimonials, like a startup > > > e-commerce landing page. > > > > > > They can be combined, but each has a different style and feel. > > > > A high level marketing landing page with slick graphics feels like it > > should be the first thing you see. > > > > Followed by a "developer" button for developers to jump into a sub-page. > > > > However... some companies split this in two. > > > > See for example: > > > > https://www.wix.com/ > > > > vs. > > > > https://dev.wix.com/ > > > > There is almost no overlap between the two sites. You have to scroll > > to the very bottom of the first page and click "Developers" under > > "Product" get to dev.wix.com, *but* Google searches can take you > > directly to dev.wix.com. > > > > We have registered gnu.tools, so we could also use dev.gnu.tools to > > take you to a developer facing page vs. www.gnu.tools which takes you > > to a marketing landing page? > > > > Cheers, > > Carlos. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Biener 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: Richard Biener @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gnutools-advocacy, Carlos O'Donell, David Edelsohn; +Cc: iains.gcc On October 5, 2018 7:36:48 PM GMT+02:00, Carlos O'Donell <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote: >I'd rather see a consistent use and clear developer naming. > >e.g. >dev.gnutools.org / dev.gnu.tools / dev.gnutoolchain.org = Developer >landing page. >www.gnutools.org / www.gnu.tools / www.gnutoolchain.org = Marketing >landing page. > >Thoughts? Just make sure to make it easily possible to go from one to the other as people are going to land on the wrong one whatever scheme you end up with. So I'd do a single 'neutral' landing page with content targeting both. Richard. > >On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 1:33 PM David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> >wrote: >> >> We also have registered gnutools.org and gnutoolchain.org. >> >> Maybe gnutools.org for dev and gnutoolchain.org for marketing. >> >> - David >> >> On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 1:27 PM Carlos O'Donell ><carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote: >> > >> > On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 10:16 AM David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> >wrote: >> > > >> > > I propose that we want to target two different audiences and, as >a >> > > stretch goal, want two distinct web sites. >> > > >> > > 1) A focal point for users and developers to access information. >> > > >> > > 2) A marketing landing page with testimonials, like a startup >> > > e-commerce landing page. >> > > >> > > They can be combined, but each has a different style and feel. >> > >> > A high level marketing landing page with slick graphics feels like >it >> > should be the first thing you see. >> > >> > Followed by a "developer" button for developers to jump into a >sub-page. >> > >> > However... some companies split this in two. >> > >> > See for example: >> > >> > https://www.wix.com/ >> > >> > vs. >> > >> > https://dev.wix.com/ >> > >> > There is almost no overlap between the two sites. You have to >scroll >> > to the very bottom of the first page and click "Developers" under >> > "Product" get to dev.wix.com, *but* Google searches can take you >> > directly to dev.wix.com. >> > >> > We have registered gnu.tools, so we could also use dev.gnu.tools to >> > take you to a developer facing page vs. www.gnu.tools which takes >you >> > to a marketing landing page? >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Carlos. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Biener @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Biener; +Cc: gnutools-advocacy, Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc I have updated the mock-up with a new, simple landing page with a link for "Users" and a link for "Developers", and the previous information page moved to dev.html. https://edelsohn.github.io/gnutools/ We can expand the new landing page to a sleeker landing page similar to e-commerce sites. - David On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 2:03 PM Richard Biener <richard.guenther@gmail.com> wrote: > > On October 5, 2018 7:36:48 PM GMT+02:00, Carlos O'Donell <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote: > >I'd rather see a consistent use and clear developer naming. > > > >e.g. > >dev.gnutools.org / dev.gnu.tools / dev.gnutoolchain.org = Developer > >landing page. > >www.gnutools.org / www.gnu.tools / www.gnutoolchain.org = Marketing > >landing page. > > > >Thoughts? > > Just make sure to make it easily possible to go from one to the other as people are going to land on the wrong one whatever scheme you end up with. > > So I'd do a single 'neutral' landing page with content targeting both. > > Richard. > > > > >On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 1:33 PM David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> > >wrote: > >> > >> We also have registered gnutools.org and gnutoolchain.org. > >> > >> Maybe gnutools.org for dev and gnutoolchain.org for marketing. > >> > >> - David > >> > >> On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 1:27 PM Carlos O'Donell > ><carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote: > >> > > >> > On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 10:16 AM David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> > >wrote: > >> > > > >> > > I propose that we want to target two different audiences and, as > >a > >> > > stretch goal, want two distinct web sites. > >> > > > >> > > 1) A focal point for users and developers to access information. > >> > > > >> > > 2) A marketing landing page with testimonials, like a startup > >> > > e-commerce landing page. > >> > > > >> > > They can be combined, but each has a different style and feel. > >> > > >> > A high level marketing landing page with slick graphics feels like > >it > >> > should be the first thing you see. > >> > > >> > Followed by a "developer" button for developers to jump into a > >sub-page. > >> > > >> > However... some companies split this in two. > >> > > >> > See for example: > >> > > >> > https://www.wix.com/ > >> > > >> > vs. > >> > > >> > https://dev.wix.com/ > >> > > >> > There is almost no overlap between the two sites. You have to > >scroll > >> > to the very bottom of the first page and click "Developers" under > >> > "Product" get to dev.wix.com, *but* Google searches can take you > >> > directly to dev.wix.com. > >> > > >> > We have registered gnu.tools, so we could also use dev.gnu.tools to > >> > take you to a developer facing page vs. www.gnu.tools which takes > >you > >> > to a marketing landing page? > >> > > >> > Cheers, > >> > Carlos. > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Biener @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy We can use all of the domains as aliases and the www/dev split. I think this is the least of our problems. - David On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 1:37 PM Carlos O'Donell <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote: > > I'd rather see a consistent use and clear developer naming. > > e.g. > dev.gnutools.org / dev.gnu.tools / dev.gnutoolchain.org = Developer > landing page. > www.gnutools.org / www.gnu.tools / www.gnutoolchain.org = Marketing > landing page. > > Thoughts? > > > On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 1:33 PM David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > We also have registered gnutools.org and gnutoolchain.org. > > > > Maybe gnutools.org for dev and gnutoolchain.org for marketing. > > > > - David > > > > On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 1:27 PM Carlos O'Donell <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 10:16 AM David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > I propose that we want to target two different audiences and, as a > > > > stretch goal, want two distinct web sites. > > > > > > > > 1) A focal point for users and developers to access information. > > > > > > > > 2) A marketing landing page with testimonials, like a startup > > > > e-commerce landing page. > > > > > > > > They can be combined, but each has a different style and feel. > > > > > > A high level marketing landing page with slick graphics feels like it > > > should be the first thing you see. > > > > > > Followed by a "developer" button for developers to jump into a sub-page. > > > > > > However... some companies split this in two. > > > > > > See for example: > > > > > > https://www.wix.com/ > > > > > > vs. > > > > > > https://dev.wix.com/ > > > > > > There is almost no overlap between the two sites. You have to scroll > > > to the very bottom of the first page and click "Developers" under > > > "Product" get to dev.wix.com, *but* Google searches can take you > > > directly to dev.wix.com. > > > > > > We have registered gnu.tools, so we could also use dev.gnu.tools to > > > take you to a developer facing page vs. www.gnu.tools which takes you > > > to a marketing landing page? > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Carlos. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Joseph Myers 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 2 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy [Sorry if this is a duplicate.] We initially can use Github pages. Github pages allow custom domain names. That would allow us to collaborate on the page. As I mentioned to Carlos privately, I have registered gnutools.org and gnutoolchain.org. Does anyone know who controls the gcc-mirror Github account? Thanks, David On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 9:12 PM Carlos O'Donell <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 8:21 AM Iain Sandoe <iains.gcc@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Carlos, > > I am interested in contributing to any content / design discussion for the ‘overall toolchain’ web page. > > Do you intend to develop it (pre-initial release) on some collaborative platform? > > .. also test post to the new list. > > I have two enablement goals. > > (1) A website to unify major toolchain projects and promote an "entire > toolchain" view with "Latest release" type of information. > > (2) A website that provides new contributors with a checklist of > things they need to do and walks them through each step. > > I'd like to be able to do some deep integration with (2), like > registering for bugzilla accounts (with human vetting, or state of the > art captcha). > > With those two goals in mind I need to find a host for this site, > maybe sourceware.org. > > Then I need to see what kind of server side tech we can use for this, > like will we be able to use django on sourceware for this new website? > > So if I had to take a first step it would be to create a Google doc > with a project plan for (1) and the pages we need to create for that. > > Cheers, > Carlos. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Joseph Myers 0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Joseph Myers @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Edelsohn; +Cc: Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy On Tue, 2 Oct 2018, David Edelsohn wrote: > [Sorry if this is a duplicate.] > > We initially can use Github pages. Github pages allow custom domain > names. That would allow us to collaborate on the page. > > As I mentioned to Carlos privately, I have registered gnutools.org and > gnutoolchain.org. > > Does anyone know who controls the gcc-mirror Github account? I *think* gcc-mirror is an instance of an old GitHub feature where they would set up and maintain mirrors of external repositories (a service they no longer document or provide new instances of, instead expecting people who want mirrors to do their own push --mirror in a post-receive hook, see e.g. <https://stackoverflow.com/questions/11370239/creating-an-official-github-mirror>). So probably that account is controlled by GitHub. -- Joseph S. Myers joseph@codesourcery.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell 2 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy On Oct 1, 2018, "Carlos O'Donell" <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote: > create a Google doc Could we please avoid using proprietary tech, that excludes the possibility of participation of hardcore Free Software users? -- Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo Be the change, be Free! FSF Latin America board member GNU Toolchain Engineer Free Software Evangelist ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Stallman 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 0 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Carlos O'Donell @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: lxoliva; +Cc: iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 8:02 PM Alexandre Oliva <lxoliva@fsfla.org> wrote: > On Oct 1, 2018, "Carlos O'Donell" <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote: > > create a Google doc > > Could we please avoid using proprietary tech, that excludes the > possibility of participation of hardcore Free Software users? I will try, but in this case the end justifies the means for me. I can certainly pass around offline copies for review after we markup some designs for the website. Cheers, Carlos. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Stallman 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: lxoliva, iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] The reason for the GNU system -- including the tools as well as the rest -- is to reject nonfree software. To promote some parts of GNU by working against the purpose of GNU is self-defeating. Please don't ask anyone to use a nonfree program in the name of the GNU Project. There are many free alternatives that we can use. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Stallman @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Stallman 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 0 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard M. Stallman Cc: Carlos O'Donell, lxoliva, iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy Richard, Part of our freedom is the freedom to use the tools that we choose. I'm sorry if you don't like it, Please don't divert the conversation and activity. Thanks, David On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 10:31 PM Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote: > > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > The reason for the GNU system -- including the tools as well as the > rest -- is to reject nonfree software. > > To promote some parts of GNU by working against the purpose of GNU is > self-defeating. Please don't ask anyone to use a nonfree program > in the name of the GNU Project. > > There are many free alternatives that we can use. > > > -- > Dr Richard Stallman > President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) > Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Stallman 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Edelsohn; +Cc: carlos, lxoliva, iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Part of our freedom is the freedom to use the tools that we choose. You personally are free to use nonfree programs if you wish. The GNU Project has never advocated stopping you. However, to make them a requirement for participation in this GNU-related activity raises a serious issue. It would mean excluding GNU activists such as Alexandre and me specifically because we uphold the purpose of GNU. That's an example of "letting the means run away with the ends." > Please don't divert the conversation > and activity. The overall purpose of GNU is pertinent in all discussions of how to advance GNU. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Stallman @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Biener 1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Edelsohn Cc: Richard M. Stallman, Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy On Oct 5, 2018, David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote: > Part of our freedom is the freedom to use the tools that we choose. Maybe I shall point out the resemblance to the philosophical argument on whether one has the freedom to enslave oneself. But it suffices for me to say that I did not choose to use those tools. If we're going to decide collectively what tools we're going to use as a group, then we presumably won't choose tools that are not usable by some of us. Now, if some are going to impose their choices on others, that's definitely not what my understanding of what freedom is about. -- Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo Be the change, be Free! FSF Latin America board member GNU Toolchain Engineer Free Software Evangelist ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Biener 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Stallman 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 0 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Richard Biener @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gnutools-advocacy, Alexandre Oliva, David Edelsohn Cc: Richard M. Stallman, Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc On October 6, 2018 9:19:12 AM GMT+02:00, Alexandre Oliva <lxoliva@fsfla.org> wrote: >On Oct 5, 2018, David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Part of our freedom is the freedom to use the tools that we choose. > >Maybe I shall point out the resemblance to the philosophical argument >on >whether one has the freedom to enslave oneself. > >But it suffices for me to say that I did not choose to use those tools. > >If we're going to decide collectively what tools we're going to use as >a >group, then we presumably won't choose tools that are not usable by >some >of us. > >Now, if some are going to impose their choices on others, that's >definitely not what my understanding of what freedom is about. It's the freedom of choice for the contributor. The project can of course reject contributions but in this case it's the content that counts, not the delivery method. Richard. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Biener @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Stallman 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Biener; +Cc: gnutools-advocacy, lxoliva, dje.gcc, carlos, iains.gcc [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] If you as an individual decide to use a nonfree program for working on this project, that's no concern to anyone else. We would not notice, you wouldn't need to tell us, and the rest of us would have no need to ask. The reason that proposing Google Docs raises an issue is that it was proposed as a collaboration tool for the whole group to use. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Biener 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Stallman @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Biener 1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Biener Cc: gnutools-advocacy, David Edelsohn, Richard M. Stallman, Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc On Oct 6, 2018, Richard Biener <richard.guenther@gmail.com> wrote: > It's the freedom of choice for the contributor. Individual GNU contributors can indeed pick their own poisons and use them privately, as long as the outputs, if any, are sufficiently standards-compliant that they can be further used indistinctly with Free Software tools. However, private use doesn't encompass advertising them, or inviting other users into the same trap. From the context, it seems to me that Carlos was not suggesting the tool just for his own private use (why would he even name it?), but for use by other members of the GNU Tools advocacy project, for collaborative editing. That would not only exclude myself and possibly other GNU contributors, but also amount to advocating tools that oppose the very purpose of GNU. Google doc is SaaSS, which is equivalent to proprietary software that spies on the user and with a universal backdoor. It also refuses to run unless the user allows a huge amount of proprietary software to run on their own computer, which exposes the user to further objectionable risk. It would be self defeating to suggest anyone to use it, therefore we shouldn't do that. If we can't use Free Software tools for collaborative editing, we shouldn't use any. -- Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo Be the change, be Free! FSF Latin America board member GNU Toolchain Engineer Free Software Evangelist ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Biener 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Richard Biener @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gnutools-advocacy, Alexandre Oliva Cc: David Edelsohn, Richard M. Stallman, Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc On October 6, 2018 11:20:25 AM GMT+02:00, Alexandre Oliva <lxoliva@fsfla.org> wrote: >On Oct 6, 2018, Richard Biener <richard.guenther@gmail.com> wrote: > >> It's the freedom of choice for the contributor. > ... >If we can't use Free Software tools for >collaborative editing, we shouldn't use any. This I do not agree with. But maybe I am too pragmatic to work on FSF owned software. Btw, I didn't see you suggesting a concrete alternative and I am not aware of any (or whether an alternative is free enough). So please be constructive. Richard. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Biener @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 2 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Biener Cc: gnutools-advocacy, David Edelsohn, Richard M. Stallman, Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc On Oct 6, 2018, Richard Biener <richard.guenther@gmail.com> wrote: > Btw, I didn't see you suggesting a concrete alternative I didn't, indeed. I somehow got the idea that Carlos found Free Software alternatives lacking, which would put his knowledge ahead of my own. But that seems to have been my imagination, for I don't see any evidence of that. I'm not a big fan of office suites myself, and when I absolutely must use one, I use LibreOffice, but I read there's LibreOffice Online. https://www.libreoffice.org/download/libreoffice-online/ https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/LibreOffice_Online https://www.collaboraoffice.com/code/ I seem to recall it could be installed more or less easily (maybe by default?) as part of ownCloud and/or NextCloud. I don't know of anyone who offers it as SaaSS, but then, using it in such a setting would make it only little better than Google dox. The Free Software Way to use it would be to install our own instance on our own server. -- Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo Be the change, be Free! FSF Latin America board member GNU Toolchain Engineer Free Software Evangelist ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Biener 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 2 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Biener Cc: gnutools-advocacy, David Edelsohn, Richard M. Stallman, Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc On Oct 6, 2018, Richard Biener <richard.guenther@gmail.com> wrote: > maybe I am too pragmatic to work on FSF owned software. Pragmatism can only be compared when there's agreement as to the goals and their priorities. It is never pragmatic to sacrifice the main goal for an accessory one, but it may be pragmatic to sacrifice an accessory goal for the main one. -- Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo Be the change, be Free! FSF Latin America board member GNU Toolchain Engineer Free Software Evangelist ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: lxoliva Cc: Richard Biener, gnutools-advocacy, Richard M. Stallman, Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc Alex, Please don't redirect a discussion about advocacy for the GNU Toolchain and the design of the web page into a discussion about GNU philosophy. It's rude. It's not productive. And it discourages other people from joining and helping. Please stop making the conversation about you and your priorities. There are many other mailing lists and forums to discuss this topic for those who wish to participate. Thanks, David On Sat, Oct 6, 2018 at 8:16 AM Alexandre Oliva <lxoliva@fsfla.org> wrote: > > On Oct 6, 2018, Richard Biener <richard.guenther@gmail.com> wrote: > > > maybe I am too pragmatic to work on FSF owned software. > > Pragmatism can only be compared when there's agreement as to the goals > and their priorities. > > It is never pragmatic to sacrifice the main goal for an accessory one, > but it may be pragmatic to sacrifice an accessory goal for the main one. > > -- > Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo > Be the change, be Free! FSF Latin America board member > GNU Toolchain Engineer Free Software Evangelist ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Edelsohn Cc: Richard Biener, gnutools-advocacy, Richard M. Stallman, Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc On Oct 6, 2018, David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote: > Please don't redirect a discussion about advocacy for the GNU > Toolchain and the design of the web page into a discussion about GNU > philosophy. The discussion was about what tools to use within this sub-sub-project.. Last I looked, GNU Tools were still part of the GNU Project. I happen to be a speaker for the GNU Project, which means its leadership trusts me to understand the values that matter for the project. And yet here you are, telling myself and the project leader, both significant advocates for the GNU Project, to keep GNU values out of the conversation about what tools to use to advocate for a significant portion of GNU. > And it discourages other people from joining and helping. Pushing proprietary software as a requirement to participate in a part of GNU does that in a far more harmful way. > Please stop making the conversation about you and your priorities. Please don't make that incorrect assumption. This is about GNU and GNU's priorities. > There are many other mailing lists and forums to discuss this topic > for those who wish to participate. Indeed. And this has already been discussed and settled there: GNU does not use or promote non-Free Software. Can we continue the present discussion about what tools to use for GNU Tools advocacy within this framework? Thanks, -- Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo Be the change, be Free! FSF Latin America board member GNU Toolchain Engineer Free Software Evangelist ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: lxoliva Cc: Richard Biener, gnutools-advocacy, Richard M. Stallman, Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc On Sat, Oct 6, 2018 at 9:47 AM Alexandre Oliva <lxoliva@fsfla.org> wrote: > > On Oct 6, 2018, David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Please don't redirect a discussion about advocacy for the GNU > > Toolchain and the design of the web page into a discussion about GNU > > philosophy. > > The discussion was about what tools to use within this sub-sub-project.. No. That's not the discussion. You're hijacking the discussion. Please stop. > > Last I looked, GNU Tools were still part of the GNU Project. > > I happen to be a speaker for the GNU Project, which means its leadership > trusts me to understand the values that matter for the project. > > And yet here you are, telling myself and the project leader, both > significant advocates for the GNU Project, to keep GNU values out of the > conversation about what tools to use to advocate for a significant > portion of GNU. > > > And it discourages other people from joining and helping. > > Pushing proprietary software as a requirement to participate in a part > of GNU does that in a far more harmful way. > > > Please stop making the conversation about you and your priorities. > > Please don't make that incorrect assumption. > This is about GNU and GNU's priorities. > > > There are many other mailing lists and forums to discuss this topic > > for those who wish to participate. > > Indeed. And this has already been discussed and settled there: > GNU does not use or promote non-Free Software. > > Can we continue the present discussion about what tools to use for GNU > Tools advocacy within this framework? No. That is not the discussion. That is not your decision. Please stop hijacking this thread about your personal priorities. You have made your request. Please stop. You are diverting the discussion. The rest of us are going to proceed with developing a marketing campaign for the GNU Toolchain. If you want to have a debate about Tools for websites and FSF philosophy and FSF policy, please go elsewhere. I have asked you twice nicely. You and others are welcome to develop your own advocacy for the GNU Toolchain with whatever tools you wish. Please do not insert yourself into another group of self-organizing advocates and start ordering them around about what they should do and how they should do it. That is rude. That is arrogant. Please stop. Thanks, David > > Thanks, > > -- > Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo > Be the change, be Free! FSF Latin America board member > GNU Toolchain Engineer Free Software Evangelist ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Edelsohn Cc: Richard Biener, gnutools-advocacy, Richard M. Stallman, Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc On Oct 6, 2018, David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote: >> The discussion was about what tools to use within this sub-sub-project.. > No. That's not the discussion. Let me quote the discussion that I joined to. Tell me what you think is being discussed: I need to find a host for this site, maybe sourceware.org. Then I need to see what kind of server side tech we can use for this, like will we be able to use django on sourceware for this new website? So if I had to take a first step it would be to create a Google doc with a project plan for (1) and the pages we need to create for that. Here's an initial attempt at a placeholder for the website hosted through Github pages and built using Bootstrap. I had just been invited to join the list, after having expressed interest in participating in a GNU advocacy group. The least I'd expect is for the group to operate within GNU guidelines. So, that's where speaking for GNU kicks in. But you're right, there's also a personal issue about it. I don't use proprietary software. The choices that divert from GNU happen to also rule out my participation. Now, it is evident to me that the decisions about what tools to use have NOT been made. There hasn't been agreement. Ideas were put forth, but no agreement has been made. And hopefully no agreement will be made that makes it impossible for me to collaborate. I and others who take GNU seriously won't feel welcome that way. > Please do not insert yourself into another group of self-organizing > advocates and start ordering them around about what they should do and > how they should do it. Sorry to say, but you're the only one ordering people around. I'm just trying to take part in the project. Like I said I wanted to. Like I was invited to. Like I agreed to. Hijacking GNU subprojects is not nice. Please don't do that. I've asked you nicely four times. If you want to promote GNU, or parts thereof, please do so without defating its main purpose. Doing otherwise is rude. It's arrogant. It's offensive. It's not helpful. It's harmful to the entire project. Please stop. -- Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo Be the change, be Free! FSF Latin America board member GNU Toolchain Engineer Free Software Evangelist ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Biener 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 2 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Biener Cc: gnutools-advocacy, David Edelsohn, Richard M. Stallman, Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc On Oct 6, 2018, Richard Biener <richard.guenther@gmail.com> wrote: > Btw, I didn't see you suggesting a concrete alternative Oops, sent it too soon. I also meant to mention that, depending on the use, there might be other very reasonable alternatives, from etherpads, if multiple simultaneous users are expected often, to wikis (ikiwiki comes to mind, for the ability to interact with it through a svn or git repo, without having to use a web browser), or even using text file-based document formats (LaTeX, texinfo, docbook) in a source code repository. -- Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo Be the change, be Free! FSF Latin America board member GNU Toolchain Engineer Free Software Evangelist ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU toolchain web page 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Stallman @ 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy On Oct 4, 2018, "Carlos O'Donell" <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote: > I will try, but in this case the end justifies the means for me. How so? What features, if any, did you miss in web-based Free Software office suites you've tried so far? -- Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo Be the change, be Free! FSF Latin America board member GNU Toolchain Engineer Free Software Evangelist ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2018-10-07 1:58 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 30+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2018-01-01 0:00 GNU toolchain web page Iain Sandoe 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Biener 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Joseph Myers 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Stallman 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Stallman 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Biener 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Stallman 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Richard Biener 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 2018-01-01 0:00 ` David Edelsohn 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva 2018-01-01 0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva
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