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* Re: GNU Toolchain web site mock-up
  2018-01-01  0:00         ` Alexandre Oliva
  2018-01-01  0:00           ` Richard Stallman
@ 2018-01-01  0:00           ` Carlos O'Donell
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Carlos O'Donell @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lxoliva; +Cc: rms, David Edelsohn, gnutools-advocacy

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 12:38 AM Alexandre Oliva <lxoliva@fsfla.org> wrote:
> However, there are other GNU contributors who may wish
> to contribute to the design of the sites' looks, and we don't want to
> exclude them from participating by requiring the use of proprietary
> tools, so I'd still appreciate clarification as to the extent of the
> intended use of the so far suggested proprietary tools and SaaSS sites,
> and make sure that we won't stop or make it difficult for anyone to
> participate by selecting inadequate tools for GNU.

I will make available offline drafts of the design in formats
accessible to GNU contributors. This way comments can arrive via their
review and this mailing list.

David has already published direct html+code of a prototype website
which you can comment on and express comments and review. Please start
reviewing that content (it's the only prototype we have right now).

Cheers,
Carlos.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU Toolchain web site mock-up
  2018-01-01  0:00       ` Carlos O'Donell
@ 2018-01-01  0:00         ` Richard Stallman
  2018-01-01  0:00         ` Alexandre Oliva
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: lxoliva, dje.gcc, gnutools-advocacy

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Any drafts in HTML with code will be reviewable by Alex.

Alex, does this work for you?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU Toolchain web site mock-up
  2018-01-01  0:00       ` Carlos O'Donell
  2018-01-01  0:00         ` Richard Stallman
@ 2018-01-01  0:00         ` Alexandre Oliva
  2018-01-01  0:00           ` Richard Stallman
  2018-01-01  0:00           ` Carlos O'Donell
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: rms, David Edelsohn, gnutools-advocacy

On Oct  9, 2018, "Carlos O'Donell" <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote:

> Any drafts in HTML with code will be reviewable by Alex.

But that would require people to post it somewhere I could get to.
Either Google Dox would end up being no different from using any local
office tool, which means Google Dox would be used privately only, so
that there's no point in advertising its use, or I'd be at a
disadvantage position for needing these additional steps to collaborate,
while some others would be collaborating directly through the
proprietary software and SaaSS web service.

The inadequate format and
tooling for distributed and decentralized collaboration would create
even worse issues than those I've experienced occasionally, trying to
contribute to projects that unfortunately adopted Github and insist
contributors to set up an account and submit Github pull requests,
rather than patches/patchesets or traditional git pull requests.
Neither setting up an account nor creating pull requests is possible
without running non-Free Software provided by Github, so...  you see
where this is going.

Either way, with Github or an office suite, I don't quite quite see how
I'd propose patches, and how they'd be integrated.  Being one of the
members of this advocacy project from the very beginning (when it turned
from dje's individual initiative to a groupo effort), I don't wish to be
left out, or placed at a disadvantage, when there are tools we could use
to collaborate to promote GNU, that are a lot more aligned with GNU.


Now, I see I had misunderstood the intended use of the proposed tools.
When Google Dox was mentioned, I thought of plans in text form, not of
web sites proper.  I have never used Google Dox, but the idea of
designing a web site on it comes across as quite alien to me.

Anyway, if at this point the idea is to propose web site designs, to be
later implemented using some proper Free Software tools, I guess I need
not even participate.  I don't have much perception to looks, what I
intended to cotribute to the project was written material
(e.g. articles).  However, there are other GNU contributors who may wish
to contribute to the design of the sites' looks, and we don't want to
exclude them from participating by requiring the use of proprietary
tools, so I'd still appreciate clarification as to the extent of the
intended use of the so far suggested proprietary tools and SaaSS sites,
and make sure that we won't stop or make it difficult for anyone to
participate by selecting inadequate tools for GNU.

-- 
Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter   https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo
Be the change, be Free!         FSF Latin America board member
GNU Toolchain Engineer                Free Software Evangelist

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU Toolchain web site mock-up
  2018-01-01  0:00 GNU Toolchain web site mock-up David Edelsohn
@ 2018-01-01  0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva
  2018-01-01  0:00   ` Carlos O'Donell
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: David Edelsohn; +Cc: Carlos O'Donell, gnutools-advocacy

On Oct  6, 2018, David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote:

> We can use Google Docs to create a shared plan.  We also can use
> Github issues for feedback and items.

Thanks for stating a separate thread for the discussion about the
design.

I'm afraid I have to ask who's this 'We' you write about.

I've asked nicely, five times already, for us (myself included) not to
use these SaaSS sites that push proprietary software onto users, because
the GNU project and myself won't use them.

Instead of admitting that the conversation in the other thread was
indeed about what tools to use, this is how you respond, blatantly
excluding me and others loyal to the GNU values, or pretending there's
no objection to that selection for us all to use to collaborate?

It suggests you're unilaterally closing the discussion about the tools,
despite the disagreement.  That's not nice at all!  It's not just rude,
arrogant, offensive and harmful to GNU.  It's also insulting and
unwelcoming.

Please reconsider, or clarify.

Thanks,

-- 
Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter   https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo
Be the change, be Free!         FSF Latin America board member
GNU Toolchain Engineer                Free Software Evangelist

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU Toolchain web site mock-up
  2018-01-01  0:00     ` Richard Stallman
@ 2018-01-01  0:00       ` Carlos O'Donell
  2018-01-01  0:00         ` Richard Stallman
  2018-01-01  0:00         ` Alexandre Oliva
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Carlos O'Donell @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: rms; +Cc: lxoliva, David Edelsohn, gnutools-advocacy

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 7:54 AM Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
> He could do this on his own, but that would not enable him to truly
> participate.  The question is, could he work with you in the joint
> effort while doing it that way?  For instance, could he access your
> latest draft, in its source form, and send you proposed patches to
> that, without running the nonfree software?
>
> If he can do that, I suppose cooperation could function that way.

Absolutely.

Any drafts in HTML with code will be reviewable by Alex.

Cheers,
Carlos.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU Toolchain web site mock-up
  2018-01-01  0:00   ` Carlos O'Donell
@ 2018-01-01  0:00     ` Richard Stallman
  2018-01-01  0:00       ` Carlos O'Donell
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: lxoliva, dje.gcc, gnutools-advocacy, rms

  > > I'm afraid I have to ask who's this 'We' you write about.

  > Everybody else who is willing to use such tools.

The word "tools" is vague and draws attention away from the issue,
which is asking the participants in this group to run the nonfree
client software that Google Docs requires.  The reason Alexandre is
unwilling to run that software is that he supports the ideas and goals
of GNU.

To make this site properly promote GNU, its development needs the
participation of people like Alexandre who hold to those ideas.
That is crucial for a good outcome.

  > Feel free to use any other tools and post mokcups of what you would
  > like a GNU Toolchain website to look like.

He could do this on his own, but that would not enable him to truly
participate.  The question is, could he work with you in the joint
effort while doing it that way?  For instance, could he access your
latest draft, in its source form, and send you proposed patches to
that, without running the nonfree software?

If he can do that, I suppose cooperation could function that way.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* GNU Toolchain web site mock-up
@ 2018-01-01  0:00 David Edelsohn
  2018-01-01  0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: gnutools-advocacy

I have created an initial mock-up of the landing page and developer
page on Github using Bootstrap.

https://edelsohn.github.com/gnutools/

We can use Google Docs to create a shared plan.  We also can use
Github issues for feedback and items.

Any thoughts about the design of the web pages and how to proceed?

Thanks, David

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU Toolchain web site mock-up
  2018-01-01  0:00         ` Alexandre Oliva
@ 2018-01-01  0:00           ` Richard Stallman
  2018-01-01  0:00           ` Carlos O'Donell
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Alexandre Oliva; +Cc: carlos, dje.gcc, gnutools-advocacy

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

There is a firefox extension for viewing the contents of a Google Docs page.
Its name is LibreJS Google Docs 1.1.  (I can't find the URL in IceCat.)
With that, I think you can see their current version.  But I don't know
whether this actually functions in the specific case.

Can you find it and try it?
If you can't find it, I will investigate and tell you where it is.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU Toolchain web site mock-up
  2018-01-01  0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva
@ 2018-01-01  0:00   ` Carlos O'Donell
  2018-01-01  0:00     ` Richard Stallman
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Carlos O'Donell @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lxoliva; +Cc: David Edelsohn, gnutools-advocacy

On Sat, Oct 6, 2018 at 10:53 AM Alexandre Oliva <lxoliva@fsfla.org> wrote:
> I'm afraid I have to ask who's this 'We' you write about.

Everybody else who is willing to use such tools.

Feel free to use any other tools and post mokcups of what you would
like a GNU Toolchain website to look like.

Cheers,
Carlos.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2018-10-11  4:58 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 9+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2018-01-01  0:00 GNU Toolchain web site mock-up David Edelsohn
2018-01-01  0:00 ` Alexandre Oliva
2018-01-01  0:00   ` Carlos O'Donell
2018-01-01  0:00     ` Richard Stallman
2018-01-01  0:00       ` Carlos O'Donell
2018-01-01  0:00         ` Richard Stallman
2018-01-01  0:00         ` Alexandre Oliva
2018-01-01  0:00           ` Richard Stallman
2018-01-01  0:00           ` Carlos O'Donell

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