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* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00               ` Alexandre Oliva
@ 2018-01-01  0:00                 ` Richard Biener
  2018-01-01  0:00                   ` Alexandre Oliva
                                     ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Richard Biener @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: gnutools-advocacy, Alexandre Oliva
  Cc: David Edelsohn, Richard M. Stallman, Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc

On October 6, 2018 11:20:25 AM GMT+02:00, Alexandre Oliva <lxoliva@fsfla.org> wrote:
>On Oct  6, 2018, Richard Biener <richard.guenther@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It's the freedom of choice for the contributor.
>
... 
>If we can't use Free Software tools for
>collaborative editing, we shouldn't use any.

This I do not agree with.  But maybe I am too pragmatic to work on FSF owned software.

Btw, I didn't see you suggesting a concrete alternative and I am not aware of any (or whether an alternative is free enough). So please be constructive. 

Richard. 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00   ` Alexandre Oliva
@ 2018-01-01  0:00     ` Carlos O'Donell
  2018-01-01  0:00       ` Richard Stallman
  2018-01-01  0:00       ` Alexandre Oliva
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Carlos O'Donell @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lxoliva; +Cc: iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 8:02 PM Alexandre Oliva <lxoliva@fsfla.org> wrote:
> On Oct  1, 2018, "Carlos O'Donell" <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote:
> > create a Google doc
>
> Could we please avoid using proprietary tech, that excludes the
> possibility of participation of hardcore Free Software users?

I will try, but in this case the end justifies the means for me. I can
certainly pass around offline copies for review after we markup some
designs for the website.

Cheers,
Carlos.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00                       ` Alexandre Oliva
@ 2018-01-01  0:00                         ` David Edelsohn
  2018-01-01  0:00                           ` Alexandre Oliva
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lxoliva
  Cc: Richard Biener, gnutools-advocacy, Richard M. Stallman,
	Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc

On Sat, Oct 6, 2018 at 9:47 AM Alexandre Oliva <lxoliva@fsfla.org> wrote:
>
> On Oct  6, 2018, David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Please don't redirect a discussion about advocacy for the GNU
> > Toolchain and the design of the web page into a discussion about GNU
> > philosophy.
>
> The discussion was about what tools to use within this sub-sub-project..

No. That's not the discussion.  You're hijacking the discussion.  Please stop.

>
> Last I looked, GNU Tools were still part of the GNU Project.
>
> I happen to be a speaker for the GNU Project, which means its leadership
> trusts me to understand the values that matter for the project.
>
> And yet here you are, telling myself and the project leader, both
> significant advocates for the GNU Project, to keep GNU values out of the
> conversation about what tools to use to advocate for a significant
> portion of GNU.
>
> > And it discourages other people from joining and helping.
>
> Pushing proprietary software as a requirement to participate in a part
> of GNU does that in a far more harmful way.
>
> > Please stop making the conversation about you and your priorities.
>
> Please don't make that incorrect assumption.
> This is about GNU and GNU's priorities.
>
> > There are many other mailing lists and forums to discuss this topic
> > for those who wish to participate.
>
> Indeed.  And this has already been discussed and settled there:
> GNU does not use or promote non-Free Software.
>
> Can we continue the present discussion about what tools to use for GNU
> Tools advocacy within this framework?

No. That is not the discussion.  That is not your decision.  Please
stop hijacking this thread about your personal priorities.

You have made your request.  Please stop.  You are diverting the
discussion.  The rest of us are going to proceed with developing a
marketing campaign for the GNU Toolchain.  If you want to have a
debate about Tools for websites and FSF philosophy and FSF policy,
please go elsewhere.  I have asked you twice nicely.

You and others are welcome to develop your own advocacy for the GNU
Toolchain with whatever tools you wish.  Please do not insert yourself
into another group of self-organizing advocates and start ordering
them around about what they should do and how they should do it.  That
is rude.  That is arrogant.  Please stop.

Thanks, David

>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter   https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo
> Be the change, be Free!         FSF Latin America board member
> GNU Toolchain Engineer                Free Software Evangelist

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00       ` Carlos O'Donell
@ 2018-01-01  0:00         ` David Edelsohn
  2018-01-01  0:00           ` Carlos O'Donell
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy

We also have registered gnutools.org and gnutoolchain.org.

Maybe gnutools.org for dev and gnutoolchain.org for marketing.

- David

On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 1:27 PM Carlos O'Donell <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 10:16 AM David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I propose that we want to target two different audiences and, as a
> > stretch goal, want two distinct web sites.
> >
> > 1) A focal point for users and developers to access information.
> >
> > 2) A marketing landing page with testimonials, like a startup
> > e-commerce landing page.
> >
> > They can be combined, but each has a different style and feel.
>
> A high level marketing landing page with slick graphics feels like it
> should be the first thing you see.
>
> Followed by a  "developer" button for developers to jump into a sub-page.
>
> However... some companies split this in two.
>
> See for example:
>
> https://www.wix.com/
>
> vs.
>
> https://dev.wix.com/
>
> There is almost no overlap between the two sites. You have to scroll
> to the very bottom of the first page and click "Developers" under
> "Product" get to dev.wix.com, *but* Google searches can take you
> directly to dev.wix.com.
>
> We have registered gnu.tools, so we could also use dev.gnu.tools to
> take you to a developer facing page vs. www.gnu.tools which takes you
> to a marketing landing page?
>
> Cheers,
> Carlos.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00           ` Carlos O'Donell
  2018-01-01  0:00             ` Richard Biener
@ 2018-01-01  0:00             ` David Edelsohn
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy

We can use all of the domains as aliases and the www/dev split.  I
think this is the least of our problems.

- David

On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 1:37 PM Carlos O'Donell <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote:
>
> I'd rather see a consistent use and clear developer naming.
>
> e.g.
> dev.gnutools.org / dev.gnu.tools / dev.gnutoolchain.org = Developer
> landing page.
> www.gnutools.org / www.gnu.tools / www.gnutoolchain.org = Marketing
> landing page.
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 1:33 PM David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > We also have registered gnutools.org and gnutoolchain.org.
> >
> > Maybe gnutools.org for dev and gnutoolchain.org for marketing.
> >
> > - David
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 1:27 PM Carlos O'Donell <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 10:16 AM David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I propose that we want to target two different audiences and, as a
> > > > stretch goal, want two distinct web sites.
> > > >
> > > > 1) A focal point for users and developers to access information.
> > > >
> > > > 2) A marketing landing page with testimonials, like a startup
> > > > e-commerce landing page.
> > > >
> > > > They can be combined, but each has a different style and feel.
> > >
> > > A high level marketing landing page with slick graphics feels like it
> > > should be the first thing you see.
> > >
> > > Followed by a  "developer" button for developers to jump into a sub-page.
> > >
> > > However... some companies split this in two.
> > >
> > > See for example:
> > >
> > > https://www.wix.com/
> > >
> > > vs.
> > >
> > > https://dev.wix.com/
> > >
> > > There is almost no overlap between the two sites. You have to scroll
> > > to the very bottom of the first page and click "Developers" under
> > > "Product" get to dev.wix.com, *but* Google searches can take you
> > > directly to dev.wix.com.
> > >
> > > We have registered gnu.tools, so we could also use dev.gnu.tools to
> > > take you to a developer facing page vs. www.gnu.tools which takes you
> > > to a marketing landing page?
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Carlos.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00     ` David Edelsohn
@ 2018-01-01  0:00       ` Carlos O'Donell
  2018-01-01  0:00         ` David Edelsohn
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Carlos O'Donell @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: David Edelsohn; +Cc: iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy

On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 10:16 AM David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I propose that we want to target two different audiences and, as a
> stretch goal, want two distinct web sites.
>
> 1) A focal point for users and developers to access information.
>
> 2) A marketing landing page with testimonials, like a startup
> e-commerce landing page.
>
> They can be combined, but each has a different style and feel.

A high level marketing landing page with slick graphics feels like it
should be the first thing you see.

Followed by a  "developer" button for developers to jump into a sub-page.

However... some companies split this in two.

See for example:

https://www.wix.com/

vs.

https://dev.wix.com/

There is almost no overlap between the two sites. You have to scroll
to the very bottom of the first page and click "Developers" under
"Product" get to dev.wix.com, *but* Google searches can take you
directly to dev.wix.com.

We have registered gnu.tools, so we could also use dev.gnu.tools to
take you to a developer facing page vs. www.gnu.tools which takes you
to a marketing landing page?

Cheers,
Carlos.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00                         ` David Edelsohn
@ 2018-01-01  0:00                           ` Alexandre Oliva
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: David Edelsohn
  Cc: Richard Biener, gnutools-advocacy, Richard M. Stallman,
	Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc

On Oct  6, 2018, David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote:

>> The discussion was about what tools to use within this sub-sub-project..

> No. That's not the discussion.

Let me quote the discussion that I joined to.  Tell me what you think
is being discussed:

  I need to find a host for this site, maybe sourceware.org.

  Then I need to see what kind of server side tech we can use for this,
  like will we be able to use django on sourceware for this new website?

  So if I had to take a first step it would be to create a Google doc
  with a project plan for (1) and the pages we need to create for that.


  Here's an initial attempt at a placeholder for the website hosted
  through Github pages and built using Bootstrap.

I had just been invited to join the list, after having expressed
interest in participating in a GNU advocacy group.

The least I'd expect is for the group to operate within GNU guidelines.

So, that's where speaking for GNU kicks in.


But you're right, there's also a personal issue about it.
I don't use proprietary software.  The choices that divert from GNU
happen to also rule out my participation.

Now, it is evident to me that the decisions about what tools to use have
NOT been made.  There hasn't been agreement.  Ideas were put forth, but
no agreement has been made.  And hopefully no agreement will be made
that makes it impossible for me to collaborate.  I and others who take
GNU seriously won't feel welcome that way.

> Please do not insert yourself into another group of self-organizing
> advocates and start ordering them around about what they should do and
> how they should do it.

Sorry to say, but you're the only one ordering people around.

I'm just trying to take part in the project.  Like I said I wanted to.
Like I was invited to.  Like I agreed to.


Hijacking GNU subprojects is not nice.  Please don't do that.  I've
asked you nicely four times.

If you want to promote GNU, or parts thereof, please do so without
defating its main purpose.  Doing otherwise is rude.  It's arrogant.
It's offensive.  It's not helpful.  It's harmful to the entire project.
Please stop.

-- 
Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter   https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo
Be the change, be Free!         FSF Latin America board member
GNU Toolchain Engineer                Free Software Evangelist

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00                 ` Richard Biener
  2018-01-01  0:00                   ` Alexandre Oliva
@ 2018-01-01  0:00                   ` Alexandre Oliva
  2018-01-01  0:00                   ` Alexandre Oliva
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Richard Biener
  Cc: gnutools-advocacy, David Edelsohn, Richard M. Stallman,
	Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc

On Oct  6, 2018, Richard Biener <richard.guenther@gmail.com> wrote:

> Btw, I didn't see you suggesting a concrete alternative

Oops, sent it too soon.

I also meant to mention that, depending on the use, there might be other
very reasonable alternatives, from etherpads, if multiple simultaneous
users are expected often, to wikis (ikiwiki comes to mind, for the
ability to interact with it through a svn or git repo, without having to
use a web browser), or even using text file-based document formats
(LaTeX, texinfo, docbook) in a source code repository.

-- 
Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter   https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo
Be the change, be Free!         FSF Latin America board member
GNU Toolchain Engineer                Free Software Evangelist

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00   ` David Edelsohn
@ 2018-01-01  0:00     ` Joseph Myers
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Joseph Myers @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: David Edelsohn; +Cc: Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy

On Tue, 2 Oct 2018, David Edelsohn wrote:

> [Sorry if this is a duplicate.]
> 
> We initially can use Github pages.  Github pages allow custom domain
> names.  That would allow us to collaborate on the page.
> 
> As I mentioned to Carlos privately, I have registered gnutools.org and
> gnutoolchain.org.
> 
> Does anyone know who controls the gcc-mirror Github account?

I *think* gcc-mirror is an instance of an old GitHub feature where they 
would set up and maintain mirrors of external repositories (a service they 
no longer document or provide new instances of, instead expecting people 
who want mirrors to do their own push --mirror in a post-receive hook, see 
e.g. 
<https://stackoverflow.com/questions/11370239/creating-an-official-github-mirror>).  
So probably that account is controlled by GitHub.

-- 
Joseph S. Myers
joseph@codesourcery.com

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00         ` David Edelsohn
@ 2018-01-01  0:00           ` Carlos O'Donell
  2018-01-01  0:00             ` Richard Biener
  2018-01-01  0:00             ` David Edelsohn
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Carlos O'Donell @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: David Edelsohn; +Cc: iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy

I'd rather see a consistent use and clear developer naming.

e.g.
dev.gnutools.org / dev.gnu.tools / dev.gnutoolchain.org = Developer
landing page.
www.gnutools.org / www.gnu.tools / www.gnutoolchain.org = Marketing
landing page.

Thoughts?


On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 1:33 PM David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> We also have registered gnutools.org and gnutoolchain.org.
>
> Maybe gnutools.org for dev and gnutoolchain.org for marketing.
>
> - David
>
> On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 1:27 PM Carlos O'Donell <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 10:16 AM David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I propose that we want to target two different audiences and, as a
> > > stretch goal, want two distinct web sites.
> > >
> > > 1) A focal point for users and developers to access information.
> > >
> > > 2) A marketing landing page with testimonials, like a startup
> > > e-commerce landing page.
> > >
> > > They can be combined, but each has a different style and feel.
> >
> > A high level marketing landing page with slick graphics feels like it
> > should be the first thing you see.
> >
> > Followed by a  "developer" button for developers to jump into a sub-page.
> >
> > However... some companies split this in two.
> >
> > See for example:
> >
> > https://www.wix.com/
> >
> > vs.
> >
> > https://dev.wix.com/
> >
> > There is almost no overlap between the two sites. You have to scroll
> > to the very bottom of the first page and click "Developers" under
> > "Product" get to dev.wix.com, *but* Google searches can take you
> > directly to dev.wix.com.
> >
> > We have registered gnu.tools, so we could also use dev.gnu.tools to
> > take you to a developer facing page vs. www.gnu.tools which takes you
> > to a marketing landing page?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Carlos.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00 GNU toolchain web page Iain Sandoe
@ 2018-01-01  0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell
  2018-01-01  0:00   ` David Edelsohn
                     ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Carlos O'Donell @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: iains.gcc; +Cc: gnutools-advocacy

On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 8:21 AM Iain Sandoe <iains.gcc@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Carlos,
> I am interested in contributing to any content / design discussion for the ‘overall toolchain’ web page.
> Do you intend to develop it (pre-initial release) on some collaborative platform?
> .. also test post to the new list.

I have two enablement goals.

(1) A website to unify major toolchain projects and promote an "entire
toolchain" view with "Latest release" type of information.

(2) A website that provides new contributors with a checklist of
things they need to do and walks them through each step.

I'd like to be able to do some deep integration with (2), like
registering for bugzilla accounts (with human vetting, or state of the
art captcha).

With those two goals in mind I need to find a host for this site,
maybe sourceware.org.

Then I need to see what kind of server side tech we can use for this,
like will we be able to use django on sourceware for this new website?

So if I had to take a first step it would be to create a Google doc
with a project plan for (1) and the pages we need to create for that.

Cheers,
Carlos.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell
  2018-01-01  0:00   ` David Edelsohn
  2018-01-01  0:00   ` Alexandre Oliva
@ 2018-01-01  0:00   ` David Edelsohn
  2018-01-01  0:00     ` Joseph Myers
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy

[Sorry if this is a duplicate.]

We initially can use Github pages.  Github pages allow custom domain
names.  That would allow us to collaborate on the page.

As I mentioned to Carlos privately, I have registered gnutools.org and
gnutoolchain.org.

Does anyone know who controls the gcc-mirror Github account?

Thanks, David
On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 9:12 PM Carlos O'Donell <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 8:21 AM Iain Sandoe <iains.gcc@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Carlos,
> > I am interested in contributing to any content / design discussion for the ‘overall toolchain’ web page.
> > Do you intend to develop it (pre-initial release) on some collaborative platform?
> > .. also test post to the new list.
>
> I have two enablement goals.
>
> (1) A website to unify major toolchain projects and promote an "entire
> toolchain" view with "Latest release" type of information.
>
> (2) A website that provides new contributors with a checklist of
> things they need to do and walks them through each step.
>
> I'd like to be able to do some deep integration with (2), like
> registering for bugzilla accounts (with human vetting, or state of the
> art captcha).
>
> With those two goals in mind I need to find a host for this site,
> maybe sourceware.org.
>
> Then I need to see what kind of server side tech we can use for this,
> like will we be able to use django on sourceware for this new website?
>
> So if I had to take a first step it would be to create a Google doc
> with a project plan for (1) and the pages we need to create for that.
>
> Cheers,
> Carlos.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00                 ` Richard Biener
@ 2018-01-01  0:00                   ` Alexandre Oliva
  2018-01-01  0:00                   ` Alexandre Oliva
  2018-01-01  0:00                   ` Alexandre Oliva
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Richard Biener
  Cc: gnutools-advocacy, David Edelsohn, Richard M. Stallman,
	Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc

On Oct  6, 2018, Richard Biener <richard.guenther@gmail.com> wrote:

> Btw, I didn't see you suggesting a concrete alternative

I didn't, indeed.  I somehow got the idea that Carlos found Free
Software alternatives lacking, which would put his knowledge ahead of my
own.  But that seems to have been my imagination, for I don't see any
evidence of that.

I'm not a big fan of office suites myself, and when I absolutely must
use one, I use LibreOffice, but I read there's LibreOffice Online.
https://www.libreoffice.org/download/libreoffice-online/
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/LibreOffice_Online
https://www.collaboraoffice.com/code/

I seem to recall it could be installed more or less easily (maybe by
default?) as part of ownCloud and/or NextCloud.

I don't know of anyone who offers it as SaaSS, but then, using it in
such a setting would make it only little better than Google dox.

The Free Software Way to use it would be to install our own instance on
our own server.

-- 
Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter   https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo
Be the change, be Free!         FSF Latin America board member
GNU Toolchain Engineer                Free Software Evangelist

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00             ` Richard Biener
@ 2018-01-01  0:00               ` Richard Stallman
  2018-01-01  0:00               ` Alexandre Oliva
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Richard Biener; +Cc: gnutools-advocacy, lxoliva, dje.gcc, carlos, iains.gcc

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

If you as an individual decide to use a nonfree program for working on
this project, that's no concern to anyone else.  We would not notice,
you wouldn't need to tell us, and the rest of us would have no need to
ask.

The reason that proposing Google Docs raises an issue is that it was
proposed as a collaboration tool for the whole group to use.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00   ` David Edelsohn
@ 2018-01-01  0:00     ` David Edelsohn
  2018-01-01  0:00       ` Carlos O'Donell
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy

I propose that we want to target two different audiences and, as a
stretch goal, want two distinct web sites.

1) A focal point for users and developers to access information.

2) A marketing landing page with testimonials, like a startup
e-commerce landing page.

They can be combined, but each has a different style and feel.

- David

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 8:56 PM David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Here's an initial attempt at a placeholder for the website hosted
> through Github pages and built using Bootstrap.
>
> https://edelsohn.github.io/gnutools/
>
> I'm happy to add people people with web development knowledge to the repository.
>
> - David
>
> On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 9:12 PM Carlos O'Donell <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 8:21 AM Iain Sandoe <iains.gcc@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi Carlos,
> > > I am interested in contributing to any content / design discussion for the ‘overall toolchain’ web page.
> > > Do you intend to develop it (pre-initial release) on some collaborative platform?
> > > .. also test post to the new list.
> >
> > I have two enablement goals.
> >
> > (1) A website to unify major toolchain projects and promote an "entire
> > toolchain" view with "Latest release" type of information.
> >
> > (2) A website that provides new contributors with a checklist of
> > things they need to do and walks them through each step.
> >
> > I'd like to be able to do some deep integration with (2), like
> > registering for bugzilla accounts (with human vetting, or state of the
> > art captcha).
> >
> > With those two goals in mind I need to find a host for this site,
> > maybe sourceware.org.
> >
> > Then I need to see what kind of server side tech we can use for this,
> > like will we be able to use django on sourceware for this new website?
> >
> > So if I had to take a first step it would be to create a Google doc
> > with a project plan for (1) and the pages we need to create for that.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Carlos.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* GNU toolchain web page
@ 2018-01-01  0:00 Iain Sandoe
  2018-01-01  0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Iain Sandoe @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: carlos; +Cc: gnutools-advocacy

Hi Carlos,

I am interested in contributing to any content / design discussion for the ‘overall toolchain’ web page.

Do you intend to develop it (pre-initial release) on some collaborative platform?

.. also test post to the new list.

cheers
Iain

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00     ` Carlos O'Donell
@ 2018-01-01  0:00       ` Richard Stallman
  2018-01-01  0:00         ` David Edelsohn
  2018-01-01  0:00       ` Alexandre Oliva
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: lxoliva, iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

The reason for the GNU system -- including the tools as well as the
rest -- is to reject nonfree software.

To promote some parts of GNU by working against the purpose of GNU is
self-defeating.  Please don't ask anyone to use a nonfree program
in the name of the GNU Project.

There are many free alternatives that we can use.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell
  2018-01-01  0:00   ` David Edelsohn
@ 2018-01-01  0:00   ` Alexandre Oliva
  2018-01-01  0:00     ` Carlos O'Donell
  2018-01-01  0:00   ` David Edelsohn
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy

On Oct  1, 2018, "Carlos O'Donell" <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote:

> create a Google doc

Could we please avoid using proprietary tech, that excludes the
possibility of participation of hardcore Free Software users?

-- 
Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter   https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo
Be the change, be Free!         FSF Latin America board member
GNU Toolchain Engineer                Free Software Evangelist

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00                 ` Richard Biener
  2018-01-01  0:00                   ` Alexandre Oliva
  2018-01-01  0:00                   ` Alexandre Oliva
@ 2018-01-01  0:00                   ` Alexandre Oliva
  2018-01-01  0:00                     ` David Edelsohn
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Richard Biener
  Cc: gnutools-advocacy, David Edelsohn, Richard M. Stallman,
	Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc

On Oct  6, 2018, Richard Biener <richard.guenther@gmail.com> wrote:

> maybe I am too pragmatic to work on FSF owned software.

Pragmatism can only be compared when there's agreement as to the goals
and their priorities.

It is never pragmatic to sacrifice the main goal for an accessory one,
but it may be pragmatic to sacrifice an accessory goal for the main one.

-- 
Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter   https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo
Be the change, be Free!         FSF Latin America board member
GNU Toolchain Engineer                Free Software Evangelist

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00                   ` Alexandre Oliva
@ 2018-01-01  0:00                     ` David Edelsohn
  2018-01-01  0:00                       ` Alexandre Oliva
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lxoliva
  Cc: Richard Biener, gnutools-advocacy, Richard M. Stallman,
	Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc

Alex,

Please don't redirect a discussion about advocacy for the GNU
Toolchain and the design of the web page into a discussion about GNU
philosophy.  It's rude.  It's not productive.  And it discourages
other people from joining and helping.  Please stop making the
conversation about you and your priorities.  There are many other
mailing lists and forums to discuss this topic for those who wish to
participate.

Thanks, David

On Sat, Oct 6, 2018 at 8:16 AM Alexandre Oliva <lxoliva@fsfla.org> wrote:
>
> On Oct  6, 2018, Richard Biener <richard.guenther@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > maybe I am too pragmatic to work on FSF owned software.
>
> Pragmatism can only be compared when there's agreement as to the goals
> and their priorities.
>
> It is never pragmatic to sacrifice the main goal for an accessory one,
> but it may be pragmatic to sacrifice an accessory goal for the main one.
>
> --
> Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter   https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo
> Be the change, be Free!         FSF Latin America board member
> GNU Toolchain Engineer                Free Software Evangelist

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00           ` Carlos O'Donell
@ 2018-01-01  0:00             ` Richard Biener
  2018-01-01  0:00               ` David Edelsohn
  2018-01-01  0:00             ` David Edelsohn
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Richard Biener @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: gnutools-advocacy, Carlos O'Donell, David Edelsohn; +Cc: iains.gcc

On October 5, 2018 7:36:48 PM GMT+02:00, Carlos O'Donell <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote:
>I'd rather see a consistent use and clear developer naming.
>
>e.g.
>dev.gnutools.org / dev.gnu.tools / dev.gnutoolchain.org = Developer
>landing page.
>www.gnutools.org / www.gnu.tools / www.gnutoolchain.org = Marketing
>landing page.
>
>Thoughts?

Just make sure to make it easily possible to go from one to the other as people are going to land on the wrong one whatever scheme you end up with. 

So I'd do a single 'neutral' landing page with content targeting both. 

Richard. 

>
>On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 1:33 PM David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>>
>> We also have registered gnutools.org and gnutoolchain.org.
>>
>> Maybe gnutools.org for dev and gnutoolchain.org for marketing.
>>
>> - David
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 1:27 PM Carlos O'Donell
><carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 10:16 AM David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I propose that we want to target two different audiences and, as
>a
>> > > stretch goal, want two distinct web sites.
>> > >
>> > > 1) A focal point for users and developers to access information.
>> > >
>> > > 2) A marketing landing page with testimonials, like a startup
>> > > e-commerce landing page.
>> > >
>> > > They can be combined, but each has a different style and feel.
>> >
>> > A high level marketing landing page with slick graphics feels like
>it
>> > should be the first thing you see.
>> >
>> > Followed by a  "developer" button for developers to jump into a
>sub-page.
>> >
>> > However... some companies split this in two.
>> >
>> > See for example:
>> >
>> > https://www.wix.com/
>> >
>> > vs.
>> >
>> > https://dev.wix.com/
>> >
>> > There is almost no overlap between the two sites. You have to
>scroll
>> > to the very bottom of the first page and click "Developers" under
>> > "Product" get to dev.wix.com, *but* Google searches can take you
>> > directly to dev.wix.com.
>> >
>> > We have registered gnu.tools, so we could also use dev.gnu.tools to
>> > take you to a developer facing page vs. www.gnu.tools which takes
>you
>> > to a marketing landing page?
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Carlos.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00     ` Carlos O'Donell
  2018-01-01  0:00       ` Richard Stallman
@ 2018-01-01  0:00       ` Alexandre Oliva
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy

On Oct  4, 2018, "Carlos O'Donell" <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote:

> I will try, but in this case the end justifies the means for me.

How so?  What features, if any, did you miss in web-based Free Software
office suites you've tried so far?

-- 
Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter   https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo
Be the change, be Free!         FSF Latin America board member
GNU Toolchain Engineer                Free Software Evangelist

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00                     ` David Edelsohn
@ 2018-01-01  0:00                       ` Alexandre Oliva
  2018-01-01  0:00                         ` David Edelsohn
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: David Edelsohn
  Cc: Richard Biener, gnutools-advocacy, Richard M. Stallman,
	Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc

On Oct  6, 2018, David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote:

> Please don't redirect a discussion about advocacy for the GNU
> Toolchain and the design of the web page into a discussion about GNU
> philosophy.

The discussion was about what tools to use within this sub-sub-project..

Last I looked, GNU Tools were still part of the GNU Project.

I happen to be a speaker for the GNU Project, which means its leadership
trusts me to understand the values that matter for the project.

And yet here you are, telling myself and the project leader, both
significant advocates for the GNU Project, to keep GNU values out of the
conversation about what tools to use to advocate for a significant
portion of GNU.

> And it discourages other people from joining and helping.

Pushing proprietary software as a requirement to participate in a part
of GNU does that in a far more harmful way.

> Please stop making the conversation about you and your priorities.

Please don't make that incorrect assumption.
This is about GNU and GNU's priorities.

> There are many other mailing lists and forums to discuss this topic
> for those who wish to participate.

Indeed.  And this has already been discussed and settled there:
GNU does not use or promote non-Free Software.

Can we continue the present discussion about what tools to use for GNU
Tools advocacy within this framework?

Thanks,

-- 
Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter   https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo
Be the change, be Free!         FSF Latin America board member
GNU Toolchain Engineer                Free Software Evangelist

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00       ` Richard Stallman
@ 2018-01-01  0:00         ` David Edelsohn
  2018-01-01  0:00           ` Alexandre Oliva
  2018-01-01  0:00           ` Richard Stallman
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Richard M. Stallman
  Cc: Carlos O'Donell, lxoliva, iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy

Richard,

Part of our freedom is the freedom to use the tools that we choose.
I'm sorry if you don't like it,  Please don't divert the conversation
and activity.

Thanks, David

On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 10:31 PM Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
> The reason for the GNU system -- including the tools as well as the
> rest -- is to reject nonfree software.
>
> To promote some parts of GNU by working against the purpose of GNU is
> self-defeating.  Please don't ask anyone to use a nonfree program
> in the name of the GNU Project.
>
> There are many free alternatives that we can use.
>
>
> --
> Dr Richard Stallman
> President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
> Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
>
>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00           ` Alexandre Oliva
@ 2018-01-01  0:00             ` Richard Biener
  2018-01-01  0:00               ` Richard Stallman
  2018-01-01  0:00               ` Alexandre Oliva
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Richard Biener @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: gnutools-advocacy, Alexandre Oliva, David Edelsohn
  Cc: Richard M. Stallman, Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc

On October 6, 2018 9:19:12 AM GMT+02:00, Alexandre Oliva <lxoliva@fsfla.org> wrote:
>On Oct  5, 2018, David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Part of our freedom is the freedom to use the tools that we choose.
>
>Maybe I shall point out the resemblance to the philosophical argument
>on
>whether one has the freedom to enslave oneself.
>
>But it suffices for me to say that I did not choose to use those tools.
>
>If we're going to decide collectively what tools we're going to use as
>a
>group, then we presumably won't choose tools that are not usable by
>some
>of us.
>
>Now, if some are going to impose their choices on others, that's
>definitely not what my understanding of what freedom is about.

It's the freedom of choice for the contributor. The project can of course reject contributions but in this case it's the content that counts, not the delivery method. 

Richard. 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00         ` David Edelsohn
  2018-01-01  0:00           ` Alexandre Oliva
@ 2018-01-01  0:00           ` Richard Stallman
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: David Edelsohn; +Cc: carlos, lxoliva, iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Part of our freedom is the freedom to use the tools that we choose.

You personally are free to use nonfree programs if you wish.
The GNU Project has never advocated stopping you.

However, to make them a requirement for participation in this
GNU-related activity raises a serious issue.  It would mean excluding
GNU activists such as Alexandre and me specifically because we uphold
the purpose of GNU.

That's an example of "letting the means run away with the ends."

  > Please don't divert the conversation
  > and activity.

The overall purpose of GNU is pertinent in all discussions of how
to advance GNU.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00         ` David Edelsohn
@ 2018-01-01  0:00           ` Alexandre Oliva
  2018-01-01  0:00             ` Richard Biener
  2018-01-01  0:00           ` Richard Stallman
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: David Edelsohn
  Cc: Richard M. Stallman, Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy

On Oct  5, 2018, David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com> wrote:

> Part of our freedom is the freedom to use the tools that we choose.

Maybe I shall point out the resemblance to the philosophical argument on
whether one has the freedom to enslave oneself.

But it suffices for me to say that I did not choose to use those tools.

If we're going to decide collectively what tools we're going to use as a
group, then we presumably won't choose tools that are not usable by some
of us.

Now, if some are going to impose their choices on others, that's
definitely not what my understanding of what freedom is about.

-- 
Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter   https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo
Be the change, be Free!         FSF Latin America board member
GNU Toolchain Engineer                Free Software Evangelist

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00             ` Richard Biener
@ 2018-01-01  0:00               ` David Edelsohn
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Richard Biener; +Cc: gnutools-advocacy, Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc

I have updated the mock-up with a new, simple landing page with a link
for "Users" and a link for "Developers", and the previous information
page moved to dev.html.

https://edelsohn.github.io/gnutools/

We can expand the new landing page to a sleeker landing page similar
to e-commerce sites.

- David
On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 2:03 PM Richard Biener
<richard.guenther@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On October 5, 2018 7:36:48 PM GMT+02:00, Carlos O'Donell <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote:
> >I'd rather see a consistent use and clear developer naming.
> >
> >e.g.
> >dev.gnutools.org / dev.gnu.tools / dev.gnutoolchain.org = Developer
> >landing page.
> >www.gnutools.org / www.gnu.tools / www.gnutoolchain.org = Marketing
> >landing page.
> >
> >Thoughts?
>
> Just make sure to make it easily possible to go from one to the other as people are going to land on the wrong one whatever scheme you end up with.
>
> So I'd do a single 'neutral' landing page with content targeting both.
>
> Richard.
>
> >
> >On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 1:33 PM David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >>
> >> We also have registered gnutools.org and gnutoolchain.org.
> >>
> >> Maybe gnutools.org for dev and gnutoolchain.org for marketing.
> >>
> >> - David
> >>
> >> On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 1:27 PM Carlos O'Donell
> ><carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 10:16 AM David Edelsohn <dje.gcc@gmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > I propose that we want to target two different audiences and, as
> >a
> >> > > stretch goal, want two distinct web sites.
> >> > >
> >> > > 1) A focal point for users and developers to access information.
> >> > >
> >> > > 2) A marketing landing page with testimonials, like a startup
> >> > > e-commerce landing page.
> >> > >
> >> > > They can be combined, but each has a different style and feel.
> >> >
> >> > A high level marketing landing page with slick graphics feels like
> >it
> >> > should be the first thing you see.
> >> >
> >> > Followed by a  "developer" button for developers to jump into a
> >sub-page.
> >> >
> >> > However... some companies split this in two.
> >> >
> >> > See for example:
> >> >
> >> > https://www.wix.com/
> >> >
> >> > vs.
> >> >
> >> > https://dev.wix.com/
> >> >
> >> > There is almost no overlap between the two sites. You have to
> >scroll
> >> > to the very bottom of the first page and click "Developers" under
> >> > "Product" get to dev.wix.com, *but* Google searches can take you
> >> > directly to dev.wix.com.
> >> >
> >> > We have registered gnu.tools, so we could also use dev.gnu.tools to
> >> > take you to a developer facing page vs. www.gnu.tools which takes
> >you
> >> > to a marketing landing page?
> >> >
> >> > Cheers,
> >> > Carlos.
>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell
@ 2018-01-01  0:00   ` David Edelsohn
  2018-01-01  0:00     ` David Edelsohn
  2018-01-01  0:00   ` Alexandre Oliva
  2018-01-01  0:00   ` David Edelsohn
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: David Edelsohn @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: iains.gcc, gnutools-advocacy

Here's an initial attempt at a placeholder for the website hosted
through Github pages and built using Bootstrap.

https://edelsohn.github.io/gnutools/

I'm happy to add people people with web development knowledge to the repository.

- David

On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 9:12 PM Carlos O'Donell <carlos@systemhalted.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 8:21 AM Iain Sandoe <iains.gcc@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Carlos,
> > I am interested in contributing to any content / design discussion for the ‘overall toolchain’ web page.
> > Do you intend to develop it (pre-initial release) on some collaborative platform?
> > .. also test post to the new list.
>
> I have two enablement goals.
>
> (1) A website to unify major toolchain projects and promote an "entire
> toolchain" view with "Latest release" type of information.
>
> (2) A website that provides new contributors with a checklist of
> things they need to do and walks them through each step.
>
> I'd like to be able to do some deep integration with (2), like
> registering for bugzilla accounts (with human vetting, or state of the
> art captcha).
>
> With those two goals in mind I need to find a host for this site,
> maybe sourceware.org.
>
> Then I need to see what kind of server side tech we can use for this,
> like will we be able to use django on sourceware for this new website?
>
> So if I had to take a first step it would be to create a Google doc
> with a project plan for (1) and the pages we need to create for that.
>
> Cheers,
> Carlos.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: GNU toolchain web page
  2018-01-01  0:00             ` Richard Biener
  2018-01-01  0:00               ` Richard Stallman
@ 2018-01-01  0:00               ` Alexandre Oliva
  2018-01-01  0:00                 ` Richard Biener
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-01-01  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Richard Biener
  Cc: gnutools-advocacy, David Edelsohn, Richard M. Stallman,
	Carlos O'Donell, iains.gcc

On Oct  6, 2018, Richard Biener <richard.guenther@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's the freedom of choice for the contributor.

Individual GNU contributors can indeed pick their own poisons and use
them privately, as long as the outputs, if any, are sufficiently
standards-compliant that they can be further used indistinctly with Free
Software tools.

However, private use doesn't encompass advertising them, or inviting
other users into the same trap.


From the context, it seems to me that Carlos was not suggesting the tool
just for his own private use (why would he even name it?), but for use
by other members of the GNU Tools advocacy project, for collaborative
editing.

That would not only exclude myself and possibly other GNU contributors,
but also amount to advocating tools that oppose the very purpose of GNU.

Google doc is SaaSS, which is equivalent to proprietary software that
spies on the user and with a universal backdoor.  It also refuses to run
unless the user allows a huge amount of proprietary software to run on
their own computer, which exposes the user to further objectionable
risk.

It would be self defeating to suggest anyone to use it, therefore we
shouldn't do that.  If we can't use Free Software tools for
collaborative editing, we shouldn't use any.

-- 
Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter   https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo
Be the change, be Free!         FSF Latin America board member
GNU Toolchain Engineer                Free Software Evangelist

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2018-10-07  1:58 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 30+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2018-01-01  0:00 GNU toolchain web page Iain Sandoe
2018-01-01  0:00 ` Carlos O'Donell
2018-01-01  0:00   ` David Edelsohn
2018-01-01  0:00     ` David Edelsohn
2018-01-01  0:00       ` Carlos O'Donell
2018-01-01  0:00         ` David Edelsohn
2018-01-01  0:00           ` Carlos O'Donell
2018-01-01  0:00             ` Richard Biener
2018-01-01  0:00               ` David Edelsohn
2018-01-01  0:00             ` David Edelsohn
2018-01-01  0:00   ` Alexandre Oliva
2018-01-01  0:00     ` Carlos O'Donell
2018-01-01  0:00       ` Richard Stallman
2018-01-01  0:00         ` David Edelsohn
2018-01-01  0:00           ` Alexandre Oliva
2018-01-01  0:00             ` Richard Biener
2018-01-01  0:00               ` Richard Stallman
2018-01-01  0:00               ` Alexandre Oliva
2018-01-01  0:00                 ` Richard Biener
2018-01-01  0:00                   ` Alexandre Oliva
2018-01-01  0:00                   ` Alexandre Oliva
2018-01-01  0:00                   ` Alexandre Oliva
2018-01-01  0:00                     ` David Edelsohn
2018-01-01  0:00                       ` Alexandre Oliva
2018-01-01  0:00                         ` David Edelsohn
2018-01-01  0:00                           ` Alexandre Oliva
2018-01-01  0:00           ` Richard Stallman
2018-01-01  0:00       ` Alexandre Oliva
2018-01-01  0:00   ` David Edelsohn
2018-01-01  0:00     ` Joseph Myers

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