war

war

[Gangolf Jobb]

hi folks, what's up? still angry? actually, i am not that a bad guy as 
you might think. i have even apologized myself ...

here is a typical FSF supporter opinion:

 >In a free market if you have two systems that do the same: one
 >free, the other restricted, only the  free will survive. Free
 >software is a construction that accumulate over time. GPL is
 >the rock over that.
 >
 >Each penny used from government or donations of programer time
 >contribute for the accumulation.
 >
 >It is a superior model and the only one that will survive in the long
 >time. It is based on the power of cooperation  and free will.
 >
 >The other model requires policial forces to impose the no copy, >requires
 >a lot of public funds to control.  Is a no bussines model. It is a tax
 >model for using the computer.
 >
 >Commercial softwares moves in the level of necesities, free soft moves
 >in a superior level, the level of joy.
 >
 >So we are in a war, only the fittest will survive.

obviously, some of you are at war, but isn't a war the must stupid thing 
one can do? have a look at the world outside your computers!

let me clarify something: darwin's famous "survival of the fittest" 
refers to evolution, not war. as a biologist i can tell you, that 
evolution will certainly not end up with one species surviving all the 
other species (be it an organism or some flavour of software license).

one reason is that organisms usually depend on each other. another 
reason is that evolution is constantly generating new species. every 
species has its specific place in the world and will survive as long
it can find suitable conditions to do so, its "ecological niche". 
competing species are normaly trying to adapt themselves to different 
nieches,which is giving both the possibility to survive, they are 
usually not starting wars (humans are an exception here). "fitness" 
means here the ability to adapt to a new environment, and not the 
ability to kill and extinct the other species. that's a common 
misunderstanding. so be careful when citing darwin!

nobody can predict a soon "endsieg" of gpl'd software. to me it seems 
more probable, that we will have both gpl'd AND commercial software
next to each other during the next hundred years or so, and in the long 
run we are all dead, anyway. moreover, i do not see any necessity for a 
war. both models have advantages and disadvantages.

FSF's war fantasies are for me one more reason for disliking it.

let me become more particular:

say my project is consisting of two programs A and B. A is something i 
am planning to make an open source project soon, while B is the 
commercial part. i would like to link the gsl into part A, but part B is 
essentialy depending on part A. now gpl is forcing me to put B under gpl 
too because A must be under gpl. on the other hand, there is no chance 
to sell B if it is gpl'd (and i do no longer want to discuss about that 
with you!), so you will understand that i can not contribute A even if i 
wanted.

i feel that changing to the lgpl would significantly improve the gsl. 
consequently, this is the right place to talk about it.

- gangolf

Re: war

[Dirk Eddelbuettel]

On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 06:17:14PM +0200, Gangolf Jobb wrote:
> i feel that changing to the lgpl would significantly improve the gsl. 
> consequently, this is the right place to talk about it.

Not really. As the list archives will show you, that has been suggested (by
non GSL contributors) on other occasions.  And the answer of the GSL
developers has been very clear: nope, won't happen.  Given how you argued
about it this week, saying that you will not have increased the probability
of this happening would still be putting it rather, err, mildly.

So please close your case, stop mailing here and let us get back to work.

Dirk

-- 
Wishful thinking can dominate much of the work of a profession for a decade,
but not indefinitely.   -- Robert Shiller, on Efficient Markets models, 2002

Re: war

[Daniel E Baumann]

On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 06:17:14PM +0200, Gangolf Jobb wrote:
> 
> hi folks, what's up? still angry? actually, i am not that a bad guy as 
> you might think. i have even apologized myself ...

A half hearted apology where you still call the GSL developers a "copyleft-commie".
 
> here is a typical FSF supporter opinion:
> 
> >In a free market if you have two systems that do the same: one
> >free, the other restricted, only the  free will survive. Free
> >software is a construction that accumulate over time. GPL is
> >the rock over that.
> >
> >Each penny used from government or donations of programer time
> >contribute for the accumulation.
> >
> >It is a superior model and the only one that will survive in the long
> >time. It is based on the power of cooperation  and free will.
> >
> >The other model requires policial forces to impose the no copy, >requires
> >a lot of public funds to control.  Is a no bussines model. It is a tax
> >model for using the computer.
> >
> >Commercial softwares moves in the level of necesities, free soft moves
> >in a superior level, the level of joy.
> >
> >So we are in a war, only the fittest will survive.
> 
> obviously, some of you are at war, but isn't a war the must stupid thing 
> one can do? have a look at the world outside your computers!

War can be just when fought for freedom, however, the cool thing about Free
Software is it is an intellectual war no one dies or anything crummy like
that. It is a struggle of ideas and idealogy. People disagree all the time. You
could even do away with this analogy all together cause it's not really a
physical "war", but in using the GPL you are taking a stand for freedom and
some will not like that.
 
> let me clarify something: darwin's famous "survival of the fittest" 
> refers to evolution, not war. as a biologist i can tell you, that 
> evolution will certainly not end up with one species surviving all the 
> other species (be it an organism or some flavour of software license).
> 
> one reason is that organisms usually depend on each other. another 
> reason is that evolution is constantly generating new species. every 
> species has its specific place in the world and will survive as long
> it can find suitable conditions to do so, its "ecological niche". 
> competing species are normaly trying to adapt themselves to different 
> nieches,which is giving both the possibility to survive, they are 
> usually not starting wars (humans are an exception here). "fitness" 
> means here the ability to adapt to a new environment, and not the 
> ability to kill and extinct the other species. that's a common 
> misunderstanding. so be careful when citing darwin!

<offtopic>
Who believes in evolution anyway? It is based on faith just as much as any
religion, IMHO. See http://www.rae.org and http://www.apologeticspress.org/
. Anyway, those are some of my *personal* beliefs.
</offtopic>

I believe someone once said, "Love thy neighbor as thyself." Free Software,
imho, is one way of doing that. Also to restrict ppl from doing what is believed
to be ethically wrong is not a bad thing. Stop thinking about yourself for a
change. Look at the bigger picture.

> nobody can predict a soon "endsieg" of gpl'd software. to me it seems 
> more probable, that we will have both gpl'd AND commercial software
> next to each other during the next hundred years or so, and in the long 
> run we are all dead, anyway. moreover, i do not see any necessity for a 
> war. both models have advantages and disadvantages.
> 
> FSF's war fantasies are for me one more reason for disliking it.
> 
> let me become more particular:
> 
> say my project is consisting of two programs A and B. A is something i 
> am planning to make an open source project soon, while B is the 
> commercial part. i would like to link the gsl into part A, but part B is 
> essentialy depending on part A. now gpl is forcing me to put B under gpl 
> too because A must be under gpl. on the other hand, there is no chance 
> to sell B if it is gpl'd (and i do no longer want to discuss about that 
> with you!), so you will understand that i can not contribute A even if i 
> wanted.
> 
> i feel that changing to the lgpl would significantly improve the gsl. 
> consequently, this is the right place to talk about it.

You have much to learn about diplomacy in fact it is a joke that you would come
on a GNU project list, blugeon them with your insults, and then beg them to
switch LGPL. What are you smoking? Do you seriously think anything you have said
will do any good when you start out by attacking people?

Stop whining and go buy some proprietary package. If you choose to take others
freedoms away then you should be man enough to go pay for that software. GSL is
a gift to the community and owes you nothing. I'm not sure why I even bothered to
post this...

Dan
-- 
And if cynics ridicule freedom, ridicule community...if ``hard nosed 
realists'' say that profit is the only ideal...just ignore them, and use 
copyleft all the same.
      -- RMS

Was I helpful?  Let others know: 
  http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=chillywilly

Re: war

[Ramon Diaz]

> shit! you are creationists!

Nope, you are wrong again. Many of us are not[1]. 
But that is beside the point: there are many people with whom I agree on 
scientific, political, religous, sexual, gastronomic, hiking, and movie 
preferences whom I would not ask for good code to do numerical integration.

Is it so hard for you to judge the GSL in its own merits that you need to make 
sweeping generalizations to convince yourself it is of no interest?


> that's indeed a reason for me to leave.

Fine. I think we will not miss you.


>
> please kindly remove all my postings from here so that my colleagues
> cannot see that i have been talking with you!

You see, you are responsible for what you say and write. Why do you think 
anybody should take action so that you are not held responsible for the long 
series of (inappropriate, insulting, and short-sighted) remarks you've 
allowed yourself to make here?

You came to this list, started insulting people, continued rising the tone for 
a couple of days, then apologized while asking for the GSL to be released 
under the LGPL, and then went back to insulting. What next?

Ramón


[1] In what concerns me,  while getting my PhD in Zoology, I also worked on 
evolutionary biology (comparative method); you should be able to find those 
papers using Google (hint: three were published in Systematic Biology another 
in Am. Nat.).


-- 
Ramón Díaz-Uriarte
Bioinformatics Unit
Centro Nacional de Investigaciones Oncológicas (CNIO)
(Spanish National Cancer Center)
Melchor Fernández Almagro, 3
28029 Madrid (Spain)
http://bioinfo.cnio.es/~rdiaz

Re: war

[Diego Saravia]

> here is a typical FSF supporter opinion:
> 
I write that opinion, I did not want to bother all the list with it,
but, you received anyway so....

> themselves to different 
> nieches,which is giving both the possibility to survive, they are 
> usually not starting wars (humans are an exception here). "fitness" 
> means here the ability to adapt to a new environment,

Thanks for your biology lessons!
I think that office products is a nieche, scientific library is another,
etc.. perhaps both could survive and adapt, perhaps not.

> 
> nobody can predict a soon "endsieg" of gpl'd software. 

I predict that. 

>i do not see any necessity for a 
> war. both models have advantages and disadvantages.

From what point of view???  There are no universal  advantages or
disadvantages. 

War is not a  necesity, is a fact of reality, every people must choose
what he/she will use, and spend money. That money go to one place or
another.

> 
> FSF's war fantasies are for me one more reason for disliking it.

fantasies???, see the world arround you! read Microsoft declarations.
every computer is a battle field, every user mind, every programmer
mind. Its a way of describing things. For some people is marketing, for
other is compromise.
Read your declarations abouts communism/FSF an so on, an you will find
yourself in a battle field.

> 
> , so you will understand that i can not contribute A even if i 
> wanted.
> 

Yes you could, write GPL soft! :)

I think that that people on this list do  not want to listen more on
these stuff.  I was cited so I am answering here, but please, if you
want to argue with me, write directly to my mail box.


--
Diego Saravia
dsa@unsa.edu.ar