From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25841 invoked by alias); 22 Oct 2002 08:32:41 -0000 Mailing-List: contact gsl-discuss-help@sources.redhat.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Subscribe: List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: , Sender: gsl-discuss-owner@sources.redhat.com Received: (qmail 25834 invoked from network); 22 Oct 2002 08:32:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.cern.ch) (137.138.131.164) by sources.redhat.com with SMTP; 22 Oct 2002 08:32:40 -0000 Received: from pcch91 (pcch91.cern.ch [137.138.205.82]) by smtp3.cern.ch (8.12.1/8.12.1) with SMTP id g9M8W0UJ019131; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 10:32:00 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: smtp3.cern.ch: Host pcch91.cern.ch [137.138.205.82] claimed to be pcch91 From: "JJ Gomez-Cadenas" To: "Manoj Warrier" , "Alan Aspuru-Guzik" Cc: Subject: RE: About coordinated efforts on scientific software. Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 02:26:00 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-SW-Source: 2002-q4/txt/msg00063.txt.bz2 Hi, The discussion seems particullarly relevant for some fields that can benefit enormously from free software such as high energy physics. Recently a new project has been launched in the context of the Large Hadron Collider project. The LHC will collide protons a TeV energies to search new particles and explore the fundamental laws of physics. Very large detectors will record the result of collisions and analyze terabites of data. It has been recognized that robust numerical libraries, graphics packages, simulations programs, data bases etc. are needed for this effort. The LHC Grid Project (LHCGP) is trying to understand the possibilities and make recommandations. In the past years, there was the trend at CERN and other HEP labs to resort to commercial products (the use of objectivity or oracle as data bases, for example, NAG as numerical library). This trend seems, fortunately to be reversing now. LHCGP has recommended recently to study the possibility to use GSL rather than NAG as the foundation scientific library for HEP. THis seems today very likely. However, one problem that free software faces is the diversity and lack of coordination of the different efforts, as amply discussed here. In order to be attractive to external clients, such as LHCGP or others, it would be good, indeed, to see some coordination emerging. To me, one way to achieve so --the trick is used very often in HEP-- is via one or more workshops. Since some of us work at universities it doesn't seem impossible to find some modest amount of funding if the thing is correctly and well-ahead planned. Also. If Brian and the other guys of GSL do not complain I believe this list is a good place to continue the discussion for the time being, since it has a very wide audience. Let me bring an important subject to the discussion, that of wrappers. If GSL is going to be truly the core of free-software numerical calculations, wrappers are needed. For HEP it seems one would like C++ and python wrappers. I have played for more than a year now with a C++ wrapper for GSL and a number of non-trivial issues emerge, such as the speed, correct use of error handling, minimizing of copying of structures and the like, which often end up by suggesting re-implementation rather than wrapping (at least for some parts of the library). It would be nice to understand better and to discuss all those issues. Best, JJ Gomez-Cadenas -----Mensaje original----- De: gsl-discuss-owner@sources.redhat.com [mailto:gsl-discuss-owner@sources.redhat.com]En nombre de Manoj Warrier Enviado el: lunes, 21 de octubre de 2002 21:50 Para: Alan Aspuru-Guzik CC: gsl-discuss@sources.redhat.com Asunto: Re: About coordinated efforts on scientific software. Hi. I was trying not to mail (because if someone asks me ..., "OK wise guy so enough of talk, do something about it", I would be at a loss of words). However here goes ... Dare I try compressing Cristoph Siopi's mail into 3 main points: 1) Need to identify Core projects (numerical library, plotting/graphics language, etc) 2) Coding Standards. 3) Open source developers making a concerted effort to tackle points (1) and (2) above rather than digging thier own burrows. I guess (hope rather) that GSL will eventually cover the numerical library part of point (1). For plotting and graphics we again have a similar situation as in the "mathematic packages" ... Check out (http://scilinux.sf.net/graphvis.html" for a list of free packages. It reminds me of what I read about the formation of the MPI forum, creation of standards, etc... However even that did not stop mpich / LAM MPI / and other implementations of the Message Passing Interface. That makes me wonder more about the "evolution" picture of software development. However periodic stock taking (Conference ?? and creation of standards or a umbrella project) like Alan suggests seems necessary. And yes Alberto you are hearing what the public wants.... All the best. I could create another mailing list for more detailed discussions on what can be done (the most I can do at present :-( ). Manoj On Mon, 21 Oct 2002, Alan Aspuru-Guzik wrote: > This e-mail is a reply to Cristoph Siopi's email. snip snip > > So there are some people that are indeed looking at the big picture. Maybe > what we need in the volunteer arena is leadership and organization like > the one that started umbrella projects, such as GNOME or KDE, that brought > a lot of people together. > > Greetings, > Alan -- Manoj Warrier (manoj.warrier@ipp.mpg.de) Stellaratortheorie, Max-Planck Institut Fur Plasmaphysik TeilInstitut Greifswald Wendelsteinstrasse 1 D-17491 Greifswald Germany Tel: +49-3834-882434 --------- History of Computing 10-11-3003 --------------- Then there used to be this great user friendly OS which overwrote your MBR whenever you installed it. ---------------------------------------------------------