* Re: Insight 5.0 and GDB 5.0 [not found] <973984454.30568.ezmlm@sources.redhat.com> @ 2000-11-13 12:01 ` Jim Ingham [not found] ` <20001114041709.A930@orion.exa.homeip.net> 2000-11-13 14:01 ` debugging a program that takes command line args Jim Ingham 1 sibling, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: Jim Ingham @ 2000-11-13 12:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: insight Eray, The fact that on SOME versions of XFree86 using X Input methods really slows Tk down, particularly if there are lots of sub-windows, has been reported numerous times on the Tcl newsgroup. One of the features for 8.4 is a runtime switch in Tk that can turn off the X Input method support - rather than compile-time as it now is... It does not affect all versions of XFree86, however, and it doesn't affect most other X Servers. Sounds like you drew a low card here - sigh. Your best choice for now is to comment the defined for input methods out in the Tk sources, and rebuild... Sorry... Jim On Saturday, November 11, 2000, at 03:14 PM, insight-digest-help@sources.redhat.com wrote: > From: Eray Ozkural <erayo@cs.bilkent.edu.tr> > Date: Sat Nov 11, 2000 12:38:52 PM US/Pacific > To: bstell@ix.netcom.com > Cc: insight@sourceware.cygnus.com > Subject: Re: Insight 5.0 and GDB 5.0 > > bstell@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > Besides the source window do you have any other > > windows (stack/local variables/watch) open? > > > > When I have any non-source window open it really > > slows the ui down. > > I don't think it matters which windows are open. Even > when changing tabs in the editor is very slow. I think > it's really about the x input method thingie in tcl. I guess > I'll comment out that in my insight and sourcenav builds. > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <20001114041709.A930@orion.exa.homeip.net>]
* Re: Insight 5.0 and GDB 5.0 [not found] ` <20001114041709.A930@orion.exa.homeip.net> @ 2000-11-13 23:40 ` Eray Ozkural 0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Eray Ozkural @ 2000-11-13 23:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: insight On Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 04:17:09AM +0200, Eray Ozkural wrote: > It looks like uncommenting TK_USE_INPUT_METHODS didn't give a big > performance boost. Perhaps tcl/tk works better on windows.. :? No, it did make some dialogues and GUI events apparently faster. It seems to have less overhead when doing GUI now, but still the look&feel is not as good as on windows. Thanks, -- Eray (exa) Ozkural Comp. Sci. Dept., Bilkent University, Ankara e-mail: erayo@cs.bilkent.edu.tr www: http://www.cs.bilkent.edu.tr/~erayo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: debugging a program that takes command line args [not found] <973984454.30568.ezmlm@sources.redhat.com> 2000-11-13 12:01 ` Insight 5.0 and GDB 5.0 Jim Ingham @ 2000-11-13 14:01 ` Jim Ingham 1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Jim Ingham @ 2000-11-13 14:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: insight Adam, Go to the Target Settings panel (look under the File menu on the Source window). Set the target to "exec". Then you will get an "args" entry box in the target settings. Type your arguments in the Run window, and you are good to go. The non-gui way to do it, is to bring up the console window, and type (gdb) set args whatever Then run as normal. Hope this helps, Jim On Saturday, November 11, 2000, at 03:14 PM, insight-digest-help@sources.redhat.com wrote: > From: Adam Schuetze <adam@adam-schuetze.org> > Date: Sat Nov 11, 2000 03:15:00 PM US/Pacific > To: Insight Mailing List <insight@sourceware.cygnus.com> > Subject: debugging a program that takes command line args > > Hi all, > > I'd like to be able to use insight to debug programs that take > command line arguements, but I cannot discover how to do this. > > I have tried things like: > > gdb test_program arg1 arg2 arg3 > > but the args are ignored. > > How is this done? > > thanks, > > -- > Adam Schuetze <adam@adam-schuetze.org> > Get my pgp keys at http://www.adam-schuetze.org > > - pgp fingerprints - > rsa: B8 80 DA D6 BB CA 80 5F C5 68 1C 08 FE 3E 65 1C > dss: 46 CB B3 C3 A1 C9 BA 57 7C B4 A1 6A BF 8F 2D 95 2B 7A 1D 77 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Insight 5.0 and GDB 5.0 @ 2000-11-03 12:27 Michael Ernst 2000-11-03 13:15 ` Fernando Nasser 0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: Michael Ernst @ 2000-11-03 12:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: insight Does Insight 5.0 and GDB 5.0 run in a Windows environment like Windows NT or Windows 98? ***************************************************** Michael Ernst University of Michigan Health System ernstmik@umich.edu 734-615-0092 ***************************************************** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Insight 5.0 and GDB 5.0 2000-11-03 12:27 Insight 5.0 and GDB 5.0 Michael Ernst @ 2000-11-03 13:15 ` Fernando Nasser 2000-11-08 3:03 ` Eray Ozkural (exa) 0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: Fernando Nasser @ 2000-11-03 13:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Michael Ernst; +Cc: insight Michael Ernst wrote: > > Does Insight 5.0 and GDB 5.0 run in a Windows environment like Windows NT or Windows 98? > If you have the Cygwin environment (see source.redhat.com) I am sure they work. At least for debugging programs compiled with gcc. I believe gdb also runs on pure Windows machines, but I never used it. You'll have to ask at gdb@sources.redhat.com, which is the gdb list, what would be the limitations (it may not debug Visual C++ programs or something). -- Fernando Nasser Red Hat - Toronto E-Mail: fnasser@redhat.com 2323 Yonge Street, Suite #300 Toronto, Ontario M4P 2C9 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Insight 5.0 and GDB 5.0 2000-11-03 13:15 ` Fernando Nasser @ 2000-11-08 3:03 ` Eray Ozkural (exa) 2000-11-08 3:11 ` Bruce Stephens 2000-11-08 7:38 ` Fernando Nasser 0 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Eray Ozkural (exa) @ 2000-11-08 3:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fernando Nasser; +Cc: Michael Ernst, insight Fernando Nasser wrote: > If you have the Cygwin environment (see source.redhat.com) I am sure they work. > At least for debugging programs compiled with gcc. > > I believe gdb also runs on pure Windows machines, but I never used it. They work MUCH BETTER on windows machines, something I don't quite understand. This seems to be related to performance flaws of tcl/tk. On the same machine source navigator works just like a native app on windows, but on linux the UI is so slow that you'd think it was written in Java. The problem is not with the X since I've very fast X11 apps (hardware accel ok) Any ideas? -- Eray (exa) Ozkural Comp. Sci. Dept., Bilkent University, Ankara e-mail: erayo@cs.bilkent.edu.tr www: http://www.cs.bilkent.edu.tr/~erayo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Insight 5.0 and GDB 5.0 2000-11-08 3:03 ` Eray Ozkural (exa) @ 2000-11-08 3:11 ` Bruce Stephens 2000-11-08 23:29 ` Eray Ozkural (exa) 2000-11-09 13:26 ` Brian Stell 2000-11-08 7:38 ` Fernando Nasser 1 sibling, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Bruce Stephens @ 2000-11-08 3:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: insight "Eray Ozkural (exa)" <erayo@cs.bilkent.edu.tr> writes: > Fernando Nasser wrote: > > If you have the Cygwin environment (see source.redhat.com) I am sure they work. > > At least for debugging programs compiled with gcc. > > > > I believe gdb also runs on pure Windows machines, but I never used it. > > They work MUCH BETTER on windows machines, something I don't quite > understand. This seems to be related to performance flaws of tcl/tk. > On the same machine source navigator works just like a native app > on windows, but on linux the UI is so slow that you'd think it was > written in Java. The problem is not with the X since I've very fast > X11 apps (hardware accel ok) > > Any ideas? You might try explicitly undefining TK_USE_INPUT_METHODS in src/tk/generic/tk.h. In at least some linux X servers, this is quite expensive. (There was discussion of this a year or two ago on comp.lang.tcl.) -- Bruce Stephens Bruce.Stephens@MessagingDirect.com MessagingDirect(UK) Ltd <URL: http://www.MessagingDirect.com/ > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Insight 5.0 and GDB 5.0 2000-11-08 3:11 ` Bruce Stephens @ 2000-11-08 23:29 ` Eray Ozkural (exa) 2000-11-09 5:59 ` Fernando Nasser 2000-11-09 6:29 ` Bruce Stephens 2000-11-09 13:26 ` Brian Stell 1 sibling, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Eray Ozkural (exa) @ 2000-11-08 23:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Bruce Stephens; +Cc: insight Bruce Stephens wrote: > You might try explicitly undefining TK_USE_INPUT_METHODS in > src/tk/generic/tk.h. In at least some linux X servers, this is quite > expensive. (There was discussion of this a year or two ago on > comp.lang.tcl.) Does this mean insight/sourcenav works very well on X servers other than XFree86? Thanks, -- Eray (exa) Ozkural Comp. Sci. Dept., Bilkent University, Ankara e-mail: erayo@cs.bilkent.edu.tr www: http://www.cs.bilkent.edu.tr/~erayo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Insight 5.0 and GDB 5.0 2000-11-08 23:29 ` Eray Ozkural (exa) @ 2000-11-09 5:59 ` Fernando Nasser 2000-11-09 6:29 ` Bruce Stephens 1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Fernando Nasser @ 2000-11-09 5:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: erayo; +Cc: Bruce Stephens, insight "Eray Ozkural (exa)" wrote: > > Bruce Stephens wrote: > > You might try explicitly undefining TK_USE_INPUT_METHODS in > > src/tk/generic/tk.h. In at least some linux X servers, this is quite > > expensive. (There was discussion of this a year or two ago on > > comp.lang.tcl.) > > Does this mean insight/sourcenav works very well on X servers > other than XFree86? > It works very nicely on my XFree86's (several versions), as well on a Sparc Solaris and a NT 4.0. Nobody seems to have noticed what you are experiencing. Try it on a different system, with different video card (that uses a different driver). -- Fernando Nasser Red Hat Canada Ltd. E-Mail: fnasser@redhat.com 2323 Yonge Street, Suite #300 Toronto, Ontario M4P 2C9 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Insight 5.0 and GDB 5.0 2000-11-08 23:29 ` Eray Ozkural (exa) 2000-11-09 5:59 ` Fernando Nasser @ 2000-11-09 6:29 ` Bruce Stephens 2000-11-09 7:38 ` Fernando Nasser 1 sibling, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: Bruce Stephens @ 2000-11-09 6:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: insight "Eray Ozkural (exa)" <erayo@cs.bilkent.edu.tr> writes: > Bruce Stephens wrote: > > You might try explicitly undefining TK_USE_INPUT_METHODS in > > src/tk/generic/tk.h. In at least some linux X servers, this is quite > > expensive. (There was discussion of this a year or two ago on > > comp.lang.tcl.) > > Does this mean insight/sourcenav works very well on X servers > other than XFree86? < http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=528799292 > suggests it might work fine on XFree86, sometimes. For what it's worth, both seem to work fine for me (XFree86 on i386 GNU/Linux). I don't know the details, but it appears that X server configuration and things may be critical---so some people might see a problem where others don't, even when using very similar systems. Try undefining TK_USE_INPUT_METHODS and rebuilding. It's not going to affect usage of Insight, as far as I can see. -- Bruce Stephens Bruce.Stephens@MessagingDirect.com MessagingDirect(UK) Ltd <URL: http://www.MessagingDirect.com/ > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Insight 5.0 and GDB 5.0 2000-11-09 6:29 ` Bruce Stephens @ 2000-11-09 7:38 ` Fernando Nasser 2000-11-11 2:18 ` Eray Ozkural (exa) 0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: Fernando Nasser @ 2000-11-09 7:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Bruce Stephens; +Cc: insight Bruce Stephens wrote: > > "Eray Ozkural (exa)" <erayo@cs.bilkent.edu.tr> writes: > > > Bruce Stephens wrote: > > > You might try explicitly undefining TK_USE_INPUT_METHODS in > > > src/tk/generic/tk.h. In at least some linux X servers, this is quite > > > expensive. (There was discussion of this a year or two ago on > > > comp.lang.tcl.) > > > > Does this mean insight/sourcenav works very well on X servers > > other than XFree86? > > < http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=528799292 > suggests it might work > fine on XFree86, sometimes. > Interesting. Thanks. > For what it's worth, both seem to work fine for me (XFree86 on i386 > GNU/Linux). > I couldn't find anyone hit by this around here either. > I don't know the details, but it appears that X server configuration > and things may be critical---so some people might see a problem where > others don't, even when using very similar systems. > They don't seem to know what triggers it as well. Maybe Eray should post his machine hardware and XFree86 configuration, but this would be the wrong list anyway. comp.lang.tcl is the appropriate forum. > Try undefining TK_USE_INPUT_METHODS and rebuilding. It's not going to > affect usage of Insight, as far as I can see. > It centainly worth a try. I wouldn't rule out the video card driver theory, although it may be triggered by the above. In any way, undefining TK_USE_INPUT_METHODS seems the first thing to try. Thanks for the hint. -- Fernando Nasser Red Hat Canada Ltd. E-Mail: fnasser@redhat.com 2323 Yonge Street, Suite #300 Toronto, Ontario M4P 2C9 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Insight 5.0 and GDB 5.0 2000-11-09 7:38 ` Fernando Nasser @ 2000-11-11 2:18 ` Eray Ozkural (exa) 2000-11-11 5:24 ` Fernando Nasser 2000-11-11 10:53 ` bstell 0 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Eray Ozkural (exa) @ 2000-11-11 2:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fernando Nasser; +Cc: Bruce Stephens, insight Fernando Nasser wrote: > Maybe Eray should post his machine hardware and XFree86 configuration, but > this would be the wrong list anyway. comp.lang.tcl is the appropriate > forum. I'm using xfree86 4 with nvidia riva tnt, on debian woody. I mean, this is supposed to be really fast. Did you really compare how sourcenav works on windows and on linux? When I try it on the same machine, the GUI is pretty slow compared to on windows. That is, the windows version is very smooth compared to the linux version. I'm baffled. -- Eray (exa) Ozkural Comp. Sci. Dept., Bilkent University, Ankara e-mail: erayo@cs.bilkent.edu.tr www: http://www.cs.bilkent.edu.tr/~erayo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Insight 5.0 and GDB 5.0 2000-11-11 2:18 ` Eray Ozkural (exa) @ 2000-11-11 5:24 ` Fernando Nasser 2000-11-11 10:53 ` bstell 1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Fernando Nasser @ 2000-11-11 5:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: erayo; +Cc: Bruce Stephens, insight "Eray Ozkural (exa)" wrote: > > Fernando Nasser wrote: > > Maybe Eray should post his machine hardware and XFree86 configuration, but > > this would be the wrong list anyway. comp.lang.tcl is the appropriate > > forum. > > I'm using xfree86 4 with nvidia riva tnt, on debian woody. > > I mean, this is supposed to be really fast. > > Did you really compare how sourcenav works on windows and on linux? > When I try it on the same machine, the GUI is pretty slow compared to > on windows. That is, the windows version is very smooth compared to > the linux version. I'm baffled. > I have both screens in front of me, on twin machines (as I said, absolutely identical, a few serial numbers apart). I haven't felt any noticeable difference. But I haven't measured. I will try (one of these days) to actually time Insight window operations on both machines. However, if there is any difference, we won't know the cause as there are several layer that are different. The Tcl system dependent part, the window systems, the operating systems. -- Fernando Nasser Red Hat Canada Ltd. E-Mail: fnasser@redhat.com 2323 Yonge Street, Suite #300 Toronto, Ontario M4P 2C9 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Insight 5.0 and GDB 5.0 2000-11-11 2:18 ` Eray Ozkural (exa) 2000-11-11 5:24 ` Fernando Nasser @ 2000-11-11 10:53 ` bstell 2000-11-11 13:15 ` Eray Ozkural 1 sibling, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: bstell @ 2000-11-11 10:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: erayo; +Cc: insight Besides the source window do you have any other windows (stack/local variables/watch) open? When I have any non-source window open it really slows the ui down. "Eray Ozkural (exa)" wrote: > > Fernando Nasser wrote: > > Maybe Eray should post his machine hardware and XFree86 configuration, but > > this would be the wrong list anyway. comp.lang.tcl is the appropriate > > forum. > > I'm using xfree86 4 with nvidia riva tnt, on debian woody. > > I mean, this is supposed to be really fast. > > Did you really compare how sourcenav works on windows and on linux? > When I try it on the same machine, the GUI is pretty slow compared to > on windows. That is, the windows version is very smooth compared to > the linux version. I'm baffled. > > -- > Eray (exa) Ozkural > Comp. Sci. Dept., Bilkent University, Ankara > e-mail: erayo@cs.bilkent.edu.tr > www: http://www.cs.bilkent.edu.tr/~erayo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Insight 5.0 and GDB 5.0 2000-11-11 10:53 ` bstell @ 2000-11-11 13:15 ` Eray Ozkural 0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Eray Ozkural @ 2000-11-11 13:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bstell; +Cc: insight bstell@ix.netcom.com wrote: > Besides the source window do you have any other > windows (stack/local variables/watch) open? > > When I have any non-source window open it really > slows the ui down. I don't think it matters which windows are open. Even when changing tabs in the editor is very slow. I think it's really about the x input method thingie in tcl. I guess I'll comment out that in my insight and sourcenav builds. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Insight 5.0 and GDB 5.0 2000-11-08 3:11 ` Bruce Stephens 2000-11-08 23:29 ` Eray Ozkural (exa) @ 2000-11-09 13:26 ` Brian Stell 2000-11-10 7:32 ` Bruce Stephens 1 sibling, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: Brian Stell @ 2000-11-09 13:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Akkana Peck; +Cc: insight Bruce Stephens wrote: > You might try explicitly undefining TK_USE_INPUT_METHODS in > src/tk/generic/tk.h. In at least some linux X servers, this is quite > expensive. (There was discussion of this a year or two ago on > comp.lang.tcl.) Wow, this is made a big improvement for me. Pre this fix it took 6 seconds for *each* "next/step" in the same file and 9 seconds if the program went into a new file (I timed it). The green highlight moved very quickly (<= 1sec) but the cursor stayed busy for 5+ seconds. The same thing happened when I use the "Continue to here" popup menu item: 1 sec to move the green highlight and 5 seconds of busy cursor. Now 6 seconds per step may not sound like much but try stepping thru a few hundred instructions and it really does slow one down. Thanks (Let me change hats now) As an internationalization (i18n) engineer I must ask: Does this "fix" disable non-ascii input? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Insight 5.0 and GDB 5.0 2000-11-09 13:26 ` Brian Stell @ 2000-11-10 7:32 ` Bruce Stephens 0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Bruce Stephens @ 2000-11-10 7:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: insight bstell@netscape.com (Brian Stell) writes: > Bruce Stephens wrote: > > > You might try explicitly undefining TK_USE_INPUT_METHODS in > > src/tk/generic/tk.h. In at least some linux X servers, this is quite > > expensive. (There was discussion of this a year or two ago on > > comp.lang.tcl.) > > Wow, this is made a big improvement for me. [...] > (Let me change hats now) > As an internationalization (i18n) engineer I must ask: > > Does this "fix" disable non-ascii input? I don't think so. I think the TK_USE_INPUT_METHODS is for supporting languages which use special X input methods---specifically Japanese. So there's probably some reduction in functionality, but I'd guess many non-ASCII characters would continue to work OK. (Work in the Tk sense, anyway---I've no idea how much gdb works with non-ASCII characters.) Judging by the comments in comp.lang.tcl, I'm not sure how much this was ever tested by the Tcl guys, so it's possible that it was broken anyway. -- Bruce Stephens Bruce.Stephens@MessagingDirect.com MessagingDirect(UK) Ltd <URL: http://www.MessagingDirect.com/ > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Insight 5.0 and GDB 5.0 2000-11-08 3:03 ` Eray Ozkural (exa) 2000-11-08 3:11 ` Bruce Stephens @ 2000-11-08 7:38 ` Fernando Nasser 1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Fernando Nasser @ 2000-11-08 7:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: erayo; +Cc: Michael Ernst, insight "Eray Ozkural (exa)" wrote: > > Fernando Nasser wrote: > > If you have the Cygwin environment (see source.redhat.com) I am sure they work. > > At least for debugging programs compiled with gcc. > > > > I believe gdb also runs on pure Windows machines, but I never used it. > > They work MUCH BETTER on windows machines, something I don't quite > understand. This seems to be related to performance flaws of tcl/tk. > On the same machine source navigator works just like a native app > on windows, but on linux the UI is so slow that you'd think it was > written in Java. The problem is not with the X since I've very fast > X11 apps (hardware accel ok) > > Any ideas? > I am not experiencing this here, so I cannot tell. My Linux and NT machines are identical twins from the same batch. There can be anything... maybe the driver to the specific board on each OS? -- Fernando Nasser Red Hat Canada Ltd. E-Mail: fnasser@redhat.com 2323 Yonge Street, Suite #300 Toronto, Ontario M4P 2C9 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2000-11-13 23:40 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 18+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- [not found] <973984454.30568.ezmlm@sources.redhat.com> 2000-11-13 12:01 ` Insight 5.0 and GDB 5.0 Jim Ingham [not found] ` <20001114041709.A930@orion.exa.homeip.net> 2000-11-13 23:40 ` Eray Ozkural 2000-11-13 14:01 ` debugging a program that takes command line args Jim Ingham 2000-11-03 12:27 Insight 5.0 and GDB 5.0 Michael Ernst 2000-11-03 13:15 ` Fernando Nasser 2000-11-08 3:03 ` Eray Ozkural (exa) 2000-11-08 3:11 ` Bruce Stephens 2000-11-08 23:29 ` Eray Ozkural (exa) 2000-11-09 5:59 ` Fernando Nasser 2000-11-09 6:29 ` Bruce Stephens 2000-11-09 7:38 ` Fernando Nasser 2000-11-11 2:18 ` Eray Ozkural (exa) 2000-11-11 5:24 ` Fernando Nasser 2000-11-11 10:53 ` bstell 2000-11-11 13:15 ` Eray Ozkural 2000-11-09 13:26 ` Brian Stell 2000-11-10 7:32 ` Bruce Stephens 2000-11-08 7:38 ` Fernando Nasser
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