Status of GNU Classpath

Status of GNU Classpath

[Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia]

Hello all,

I am CCing everyone who participated in the 2014 discussion about the
future of GNU Classpath; my apologies if you are not interested in the
topic anymore.

I wanted to ask if the project is still alive, and if so, if someone
can let me know who should I contact regarding the matters below.

Summary: It does not seem to be possible to join the mailing list
anymore. Additionally, emails sent to the list are not being delivered
to subscribers, nor included in the archives (see details in the email
below).

I can see that development halted around 2016 (from the commit logs of
the official git repo), but would like to know if someone else is
still using GNU Classpath.

Thanks,

Guillermo


El jue, 26 ene 2023 a las 12:10, Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia
(<guille.rodriguez@gmail.com>) escribió:
>
> Hi Mark, all,
>
> Looks like something is broken in the classpath.org mailing list archives.
>
> The main page listing Classpath-related mailing lists is here:
> http://savannah.gnu.org/mail/?group=classpath
>
> For the main ("Discussion") ML this links to:
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/classpath/
>
> That archive does not include any emails after March 2010 except one
> automated notification from "sysadmin" in 2019. However there has been
> activity since March 2010 (not much, but some), as can be seen in
> other archives:
>
> https://www.mail-archive.com/classpath@gnu.org/maillist.html
> https://www.spinics.net/lists/gnu-classpath/
>
> So it looks like the official archive is not being updated for some reason.
>
> It would be nice if this can be fixed as otherwise it is very
> difficult for non-subscribe to find recent discussions.
>
> Additionally, the "Subscribe" button here
> (https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/classpath) seems to be
> disabled. Note that this is only for the Discussion mailing list; for
> the other lists in http://savannah.gnu.org/mail/?group=classpath the
> subscribe button is enabled.
>
> If I should be contacting someone else for these matters, can someone
> point me in the right direction?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia
> guille.rodriguez@gmail.com



--
Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia
guille.rodriguez@gmail.com

Re: Status of GNU Classpath

[Ricardo Wurmus]

Hi Guillermo,

> I can see that development halted around 2016 (from the commit logs of
> the official git repo), but would like to know if someone else is
> still using GNU Classpath.

GNU Guix is using GNU Classpath in the bootstrap path from C to modern JDKs.

-- 
Ricardo

Re: Status of GNU Classpath

[Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia]

Hi Ricardo,

> > I can see that development halted around 2016 (from the commit logs of
> > the official git repo), but would like to know if someone else is
> > still using GNU Classpath.
>
> GNU Guix is using GNU Classpath in the bootstrap path from C to modern JDKs.

Thanks a lot for your answer.

I had a look at Guix and specifically this comment:
https://github.com/ecbrown/guix/blob/master/gnu/packages/java.scm#L92

I see you use GNU Classpath as a bootstrap toolchain in order to build
OpenJDK. In that process you need to build 0.93, then 0.99, then
finally the "development" version (basically 0.99 plus a few
additional commits).

I understand that the above already does the job, and that GNU
Classpath is not used in Guix anymore once OpenJDK is built. Is this
correct?

Thanks,

Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia
guille.rodriguez@gmail.com

Re: Status of GNU Classpath

[Andrew Haley]

On 2/6/23 14:25, Ricardo Wurmus wrote:
> Hi Guillermo,
> 
>> I can see that development halted around 2016 (from the commit logs of
>> the official git repo), but would like to know if someone else is
>> still using GNU Classpath.
> GNU Guix is using GNU Classpath in the bootstrap path from C to modern JDKs.

That's very cool. I wasn't aware that anyone was still doing this. It's important
to maintain a way to rebuild OpenJDK from scratch, with free software.

-- 
Andrew Haley  (he/him)
Java Platform Lead Engineer
Red Hat UK Ltd. <https://www.redhat.com>
https://keybase.io/andrewhaley
EAC8 43EB D3EF DB98 CC77 2FAD A5CD 6035 332F A671

Re: Status of GNU Classpath

[Mark Wielaard]

Hi Guillermo,

On Mon, 2023-02-06 at 13:55 +0100, Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia wrote:
> Summary: It does not seem to be possible to join the mailing list
> anymore. Additionally, emails sent to the list are not being delivered
> to subscribers, nor included in the archives (see details in the email
> below).

Urgh. Sorry. I did see your earlier email, but then Fosdem happened and
I forgot. So at one point classpath got so much email that
lists.gnu.org couldn't handle it in time. So we arranged to handle all
emails on developer.classpath.org. But at some point that machine had
to be migrated and the mailinglist archives haven't been put back.
There are backups and I'll contact the fsf-tech team to see if they can
incorporate those archives and handle the mailinglist directly again.

Cheers,

Mark

Re: Status of GNU Classpath

[Mark Wielaard]

On Tue, 2023-02-07 at 10:34 +0000, Andrew Haley wrote:
> On 2/6/23 14:25, Ricardo Wurmus wrote:
> > Hi Guillermo,
> > 
> > > I can see that development halted around 2016 (from the commit logs of
> > > the official git repo), but would like to know if someone else is
> > > still using GNU Classpath.
> > GNU Guix is using GNU Classpath in the bootstrap path from C to modern JDKs.
> 
> That's very cool. I wasn't aware that anyone was still doing this. It's important
> to maintain a way to rebuild OpenJDK from scratch, with free software.

There is https://bootstrappable.org/ which does this for a number of
environments. The description of how to get a modern OpenJDK from
jikes, (old) GNU Classpath, (old) jamvm, Ant, ECJ, (new) GNU Classpath,
(new) JamVM, IcedTea 1.x, IcedTea 2.x, OpenJDK 7, ... is here:
https://bootstrappable.org/projects/java.html
GNU Guix has that all automated.

Cheers,

Mark

Re: Status of GNU Classpath

[Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia]

Hi Mark,

El mar, 7 feb 2023 a las 11:47, Mark Wielaard (<mark@klomp.org>) escribió:
>
> Hi Guillermo,
>
> On Mon, 2023-02-06 at 13:55 +0100, Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia wrote:
> > Summary: It does not seem to be possible to join the mailing list
> > anymore. Additionally, emails sent to the list are not being delivered
> > to subscribers, nor included in the archives (see details in the email
> > below).
>
> Urgh. Sorry. I did see your earlier email, but then Fosdem happened and
> I forgot. So at one point classpath got so much email that
> lists.gnu.org couldn't handle it in time. So we arranged to handle all
> emails on developer.classpath.org. But at some point that machine had
> to be migrated and the mailinglist archives haven't been put back.
> There are backups and I'll contact the fsf-tech team to see if they can
> incorporate those archives and handle the mailinglist directly again.

Thank you. There are a number of issues actually. I'll summarize here
in case you want to forward this to the relevant team:

1. Archives are not up to date, e-mails sent after March 2010 do not
show up in the archives (although they are visible in other,
non-official archives). See:
    * Official archive: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/classpath/
    * Non-official archives:
https://www.mail-archive.com/classpath@gnu.org/maillist.html ,
https://www.spinics.net/lists/gnu-classpath/
2. It is not possible to subscribe to the mailing list anymore
("subscribe" button has no associated action, does not submit the
form). See:
    * https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/classpath
3. (I believe) emails sent to the mailing list are not delivered to
current subscribers

A functioning mailing list is important as otherwise it is difficult
to discuss anything in the open.

Eventually I think it would be good to discuss what is the current
status and future of GNU Classpath, and what can be done to help it
move forward -- assuming there is enough interest.

Thanks,

Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia
guille.rodriguez@gmail.com

Re: Status of GNU Classpath

[Ricardo Wurmus]

Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia via Java <java@gcc.gnu.org> writes:

> Hi Ricardo,
>
>> > I can see that development halted around 2016 (from the commit logs of
>> > the official git repo), but would like to know if someone else is
>> > still using GNU Classpath.
>>
>> GNU Guix is using GNU Classpath in the bootstrap path from C to modern JDKs.
[…]
> I understand that the above already does the job, and that GNU
> Classpath is not used in Guix anymore once OpenJDK is built. Is this
> correct?

Classpath does not end up being used in applications at *runtime*, but
it remains part of the bootstrap chain forever.  In Guix we merely cache
build artifacts, but the build inputs (instructions and the closure of
all sources) are never fully divorced from the build outputs.  In other
words: we cannot ever *not* build Classpath if we want to build
OpenJDK.  Users only avoid building out the full bootstrap chain by
downloading substitutes for a local build — but the builds themselves
must happen somewhere (in this case on the build farm).

We also rebuild the complete bootstrap chain whenever its inputs
change.  For Classpath and the OpenJDK this would happen, for example,
when we use a new default C compiler, or any of the input libraries or
tools change.

We will need to continue to be able to build Classpath and all of the
other early Java things for as long as Java packages should be buildable
by Guix.  Over the years this may require minor tweaks and patches.

-- 
Ricardo

Re: Status of GNU Classpath

[Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia]

El mié, 8 feb 2023 a las 11:50, Ricardo Wurmus (<rekado@elephly.net>) escribió:
> > Hi Ricardo,
> >
> >> > I can see that development halted around 2016 (from the commit logs of
> >> > the official git repo), but would like to know if someone else is
> >> > still using GNU Classpath.
> >>
> >> GNU Guix is using GNU Classpath in the bootstrap path from C to modern JDKs.
> […]
> > I understand that the above already does the job, and that GNU
> > Classpath is not used in Guix anymore once OpenJDK is built. Is this
> > correct?
>
> Classpath does not end up being used in applications at *runtime*, but
> it remains part of the bootstrap chain forever.  In Guix we merely cache
> build artifacts, but the build inputs (instructions and the closure of
> all sources) are never fully divorced from the build outputs.  In other
> words: we cannot ever *not* build Classpath if we want to build
> OpenJDK.  Users only avoid building out the full bootstrap chain by
> downloading substitutes for a local build — but the builds themselves
> must happen somewhere (in this case on the build farm).
>
> We also rebuild the complete bootstrap chain whenever its inputs
> change.  For Classpath and the OpenJDK this would happen, for example,
> when we use a new default C compiler, or any of the input libraries or
> tools change.
>
> We will need to continue to be able to build Classpath and all of the
> other early Java things for as long as Java packages should be buildable
> by Guix.  Over the years this may require minor tweaks and patches.

Thank you Ricardo.

Given the specific needs of your use case I would like to ask the following:

Would Guix be interested in new releases of GNU Classpath? Or are the
current releases (0.93 + 0.99 + devel) "good enough" for what you
need?

Thanks,

Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia
guille.rodriguez@gmail.com

Re: Status of GNU Classpath

[Ricardo Wurmus]

Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia <guille.rodriguez@gmail.com> writes:

> Would Guix be interested in new releases of GNU Classpath? Or are the
> current releases (0.93 + 0.99 + devel) "good enough" for what you
> need?

At this point there would likely be no benefit to Guix from a new
release of GNU Classpath, unless it would result in a shortening of the
bootstrap chain.

A new release that combines the properties (= build requirements and
supported target language version) of 0.93, 0.99, and the later devel
version would probably allow us to shorten the bootstrap some more.  But
as it stands we’re happy with these historic releases as they serve us
well.

-- 
Ricardo

Re: Status of GNU Classpath

[Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2483 bytes --]

Hi Mark,

Were you able to have a look at this?

Current status seems to be the same as in February.

Thank you,

Guillermo

El mar, 7 feb 2023 a las 14:00, Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia (<
guille.rodriguez@gmail.com>) escribió:

> Hi Mark,
>
> El mar, 7 feb 2023 a las 11:47, Mark Wielaard (<mark@klomp.org>) escribió:
> >
> > Hi Guillermo,
> >
> > On Mon, 2023-02-06 at 13:55 +0100, Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia wrote:
> > > Summary: It does not seem to be possible to join the mailing list
> > > anymore. Additionally, emails sent to the list are not being delivered
> > > to subscribers, nor included in the archives (see details in the email
> > > below).
> >
> > Urgh. Sorry. I did see your earlier email, but then Fosdem happened and
> > I forgot. So at one point classpath got so much email that
> > lists.gnu.org couldn't handle it in time. So we arranged to handle all
> > emails on developer.classpath.org. But at some point that machine had
> > to be migrated and the mailinglist archives haven't been put back.
> > There are backups and I'll contact the fsf-tech team to see if they can
> > incorporate those archives and handle the mailinglist directly again.
>
> Thank you. There are a number of issues actually. I'll summarize here
> in case you want to forward this to the relevant team:
>
> 1. Archives are not up to date, e-mails sent after March 2010 do not
> show up in the archives (although they are visible in other,
> non-official archives). See:
>     * Official archive: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/classpath/
>     * Non-official archives:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/classpath@gnu.org/maillist.html ,
> https://www.spinics.net/lists/gnu-classpath/
> 2. It is not possible to subscribe to the mailing list anymore
> ("subscribe" button has no associated action, does not submit the
> form). See:
>     * https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/classpath
> 3. (I believe) emails sent to the mailing list are not delivered to
> current subscribers
>
> A functioning mailing list is important as otherwise it is difficult
> to discuss anything in the open.
>
> Eventually I think it would be good to discuss what is the current
> status and future of GNU Classpath, and what can be done to help it
> move forward -- assuming there is enough interest.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia
> guille.rodriguez@gmail.com
>


-- 
Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia
guille.rodriguez@gmail.com

Re: Status of GNU Classpath

[Mark Wielaard]

Hi Guillermo,

On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 12:06:49PM +0200, Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia wrote:
> Were you able to have a look at this?
> 
> Current status seems to be the same as in February.

No, sorry I haven't. Thanks for the reminder.

Cheers,

Mark

> El mar, 7 feb 2023 a las 14:00, Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia (<
> guille.rodriguez@gmail.com>) escribió:
> 
> > Hi Mark,
> >
> > El mar, 7 feb 2023 a las 11:47, Mark Wielaard (<mark@klomp.org>) escribió:
> > >
> > > Hi Guillermo,
> > >
> > > On Mon, 2023-02-06 at 13:55 +0100, Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia wrote:
> > > > Summary: It does not seem to be possible to join the mailing list
> > > > anymore. Additionally, emails sent to the list are not being delivered
> > > > to subscribers, nor included in the archives (see details in the email
> > > > below).
> > >
> > > Urgh. Sorry. I did see your earlier email, but then Fosdem happened and
> > > I forgot. So at one point classpath got so much email that
> > > lists.gnu.org couldn't handle it in time. So we arranged to handle all
> > > emails on developer.classpath.org. But at some point that machine had
> > > to be migrated and the mailinglist archives haven't been put back.
> > > There are backups and I'll contact the fsf-tech team to see if they can
> > > incorporate those archives and handle the mailinglist directly again.
> >
> > Thank you. There are a number of issues actually. I'll summarize here
> > in case you want to forward this to the relevant team:
> >
> > 1. Archives are not up to date, e-mails sent after March 2010 do not
> > show up in the archives (although they are visible in other,
> > non-official archives). See:
> >     * Official archive: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/classpath/
> >     * Non-official archives:
> > https://www.mail-archive.com/classpath@gnu.org/maillist.html ,
> > https://www.spinics.net/lists/gnu-classpath/
> > 2. It is not possible to subscribe to the mailing list anymore
> > ("subscribe" button has no associated action, does not submit the
> > form). See:
> >     * https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/classpath
> > 3. (I believe) emails sent to the mailing list are not delivered to
> > current subscribers
> >
> > A functioning mailing list is important as otherwise it is difficult
> > to discuss anything in the open.
> >
> > Eventually I think it would be good to discuss what is the current
> > status and future of GNU Classpath, and what can be done to help it
> > move forward -- assuming there is enough interest.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia
> > guille.rodriguez@gmail.com
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia
> guille.rodriguez@gmail.com