From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 78879 invoked by alias); 18 Apr 2018 21:10:19 -0000 Mailing-List: contact libc-alpha-help@sourceware.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: , Sender: libc-alpha-owner@sourceware.org Received: (qmail 78870 invoked by uid 89); 18 Apr 2018 21:10:19 -0000 Authentication-Results: sourceware.org; auth=none X-Virus-Found: No X-Spam-SWARE-Status: No, score=4.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FOREIGN_BODY,KAM_SHORT,SPF_HELO_PASS,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.3.2 spammy=displayed, adhere, finance, federal X-HELO: kdex.de X-Spam-Report: * 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. * See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block * for more information. * [URIs: wikipedia.org] * -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP * -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature * 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily * valid * -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's * domain From: kdex To: libc-alpha@sourceware.org Subject: Re: de_DE has been using the wrong group separator for over 18 years Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:10:00 -0000 Message-ID: <3237899.yz248PDzAY@punchy> In-Reply-To: <80f237b7-13c1-982b-fe87-baece295335e@redhat.com> References: <7224816.qpMlRvYOtE@punchy> <4012681.xXnO2VdWZr@punchy> <80f237b7-13c1-982b-fe87-baece295335e@redhat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1856167.ODealdLOfj"; micalg="pgp-sha256"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-SW-Source: 2018-04/txt/msg00374.txt.bz2 --nextPart1856167.ODealdLOfj Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-length: 3021 On Wednesday, April 18, 2018 11:35:31 AM CEST Florian Weimer wrote: > On 04/18/2018 10:30 AM, kdex wrote: > > While the Federal Ministry of Finance may be an interesting (or even > > ironic) source to point out, it is in no way normative, and their websi= te > > is mostly subject to their team of web developers. >=20 > =BBRund 32.000 Experten aus Wirtschaft und Forschung, von Verbraucherseite > und der =F6ffentlichen Hand bringen ihr Fachwissen in den Normungsprozess > ein, den DIN als privatwirtschaftlich organisierter Projektmanager steuer= t.=AB >=20 > >=20 > And as that web page explains, DIN norms aren't normative, either. Our > users expect that the locales follow actual practice, not what some > document says that they have never seen and nobody has read. (For > example, I can't easily tell whether the DIN-proposed keyboard layout > for German provides a convenient way to enter the relevant space characte= r.) By the same argument, you could easily pitch abandoning all norms; most peo= ple=20 will likely not have seen or read any norm in their lives; the majority jus= t=20 replicates what others do, or whatever Duden states. So yes, it is true that it there is no requirement to follow DIN norms, nor= is=20 there a requirement to follow Duden's word spellings; though I don't see ho= w a=20 seemingly arbitrary group separator with no normative grounds is any better= .=20 The purpose of a norm is to have a common system that everyone can follow.= =20 Doesn't deviating from the norm defy the very purpose of having norms in th= e=20 first place? I would be surprised if *everyone* using the es_MX locale would expect U+20= 09=20 to be used as a group separator; in fact, I do imagine a lot of users being= =20 just as creative as the Germans when it comes to typing out grouping=20 separators by hand. Hence, the point is less that locale users need the ability to have U+2009= =20 mapped on their keyboards somewhere, but rather that users should be able t= o=20 input regular numbers and rely on their software to use their system locale= to=20 figure out how their numbers should be displayed according to the current=20 locale. >=20 > Wikipedia itself prefers =BB.=AB for numbers on (culturally) German pages: >=20 > pierung> >=20 > You cited a Swiss web page (finanzen.ch), but the Swiss have slightly > different typographical traditions which do not apply to de_DE. I think it's best if we consider most URLs exchanged in this thread to be=20 anecdotal evidence; this doesn't get us much further (but I do acknowledge= =20 your point). Ideally, we should adhere to "official" guidelines. And as has been stated= =20 before; Duden is de-jure non-normative, but de-facto, it very much is. >=20 > As I said, some (culturally German) typesetters use spaces (of various > widths), but their use is somewhat rare. >=20 > Thanks, > Florian= --nextPart1856167.ODealdLOfj Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. 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