From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wr1-x444.google.com (mail-wr1-x444.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::444]) by sourceware.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D298386F809 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 15:26:10 +0000 (GMT) DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 sourceware.org 4D298386F809 Received: by mail-wr1-x444.google.com with SMTP id a5so8732898wrm.6 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 08:26:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:cc:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=/ftqovtAFRnsw5/SIwKFfUxdkTmH17cT+E8CVi04iLI=; b=AH+KhiDIpggMLd0Npf2Z8dp03Hy+ULEBTA/J39jgn+Ps+lCgkC5URJ8g9tXUCCvG2Z cSSe1K3sPzgAn/pd3o9/PmbmKn93RgCiu/KVlwVUdSbUwEmVX2LyrD9AOBcO8J+KthXn wRSmjz6oyjjlMgha3uWdTPzDwCZxiCIAfPE/lV0gKdEfV5iQGgXJAK03sx4EjHcxfCWx LGqVuCr2X06LY7EtipRgeAo5yiqXeiz+uWl8Hv/B2RSgmWtPPaaRcIDqGfwUbd+2pvcy YPK6vbZVRsHUMBB7ft/DyG9qLvDyshV+uYSdxfW6cXQwVSsmctHGTdV09FYxOHfPVx1C lwdA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531DfuxQyPyuHclRzW81muxnN7sj9a+v2O/X1dwums1zFJrB6M2B wGp/uT2PTSCeSz9MFibG6zY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJypThb5eL1mQZeETZjxrEMzEJS20toAZZsdO2Rg31HuAIYe9y82PNLzN6zxpcrAyUKHBuQiAQ== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:6cd0:: with SMTP id c16mr25958984wrc.121.1595949969274; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 08:26:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:a61:3adb:8201:9649:88f:51f8:6a21? ([2001:a61:3adb:8201:9649:88f:51f8:6a21]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t202sm4814454wmt.20.2020.07.28.08.26.07 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Jul 2020 08:26:08 -0700 (PDT) Cc: mtk.manpages@gmail.com, Zack Weinberg , Carlos O'Donell , libc-alpha , "Joseph S. Myers" , Florian Weimer , Paul Eggert Subject: Re: Pseudoterminal terminology (was Re: Rename "master" branch to "main"?) To: enh References: <423fbe8b-6b41-d9e8-c4a2-5865d8eeec4b@gmail.com> From: "Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)" Message-ID: <990ea0cb-1997-9ad4-e0ea-f5ba54e22066@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 17:26:05 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00, DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, DKIM_VALID_EF, FREEMAIL_FROM, KAM_SHORT, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_PASS, TXREP autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on server2.sourceware.org X-BeenThere: libc-alpha@sourceware.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Libc-alpha mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 15:26:11 -0000 On 7/27/20 10:52 PM, enh wrote: [...] > yeah, i'm can't say i'm particularly excited about those terms ... but > "master" and "slave" weren't super obvious either. > > tbh, i don't think any of the choices in this thread are actually _worse_ > in terms of clarity (though existing practice was at least consistent so > you could rtfm). > > i found the python reference i failed to find for michael earlier... it > looks like i couldn't find it because it's the one master/slave change to > python that they didn't actually submit. in > https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/9100 they were going to go with > parent and child but gvanrossum said they shouldn't change unless Unix > changes. > > at least parent/child are names that most folks (including non-native > speakers) will have had to learn already. Those names (parent, child) do seem strange to me. With process creation, those terms make a kind of sense. There's no obvious sense to me for parent/child in the pty context. (The nearest I can see: The parent device tells the child device what to do? Now that's a whole other interesting can of worms.) > golang went with pty/tty ( > https://github.com/creack/pty/commit/7dc38fb350b1d71383eed149e73acb7bae231ddb) > which is interestingly simple. The simplicity of it is appealing. But, how does this read in prose documentation. Do we replace actual English words with abbreviations ("pty", "tty")? That looks a little weird in writing, and seems weirder when spoken aloud. And then: "the pseudoterminal pty device" seems a little bit like something I might find in "The Department of Redundancy Dept"... I think proper English nouns would be preferable, if we can find ones that are suitable. Cheers, Michael -- Michael Kerrisk Linux man-pages maintainer; http://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/ Linux/UNIX System Programming Training: http://man7.org/training/