* [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines @ 2018-10-22 15:57 Matthew Garrett 2018-10-22 20:34 ` Carlos O'Donell ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Matthew Garrett @ 2018-10-22 15:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: libc-alpha; +Cc: rms, Matthew Garrett As documented in https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html, GNU projects should aim to communicate in ways that are not unwelcoming. Multiple people have indicated that they found this joke unwelcoming, and in addition it is an unrelated and off-topic political issue: as the Guidelines say, "Please don't raise unrelated political issues in GNU Project discussions, because they are off-topic". --- ChangeLog | 5 +++++ manual/startup.texi | 8 -------- 2 files changed, 5 insertions(+), 8 deletions(-) diff --git a/ChangeLog b/ChangeLog index 073d034c40..6b6a09d4dc 100644 --- a/ChangeLog +++ b/ChangeLog @@ -1,3 +1,8 @@ +2018-10-22 Matthew Garrett <matthewgarrett@google.com> + + * manual/startup.texi: Improve adherance to the Kind Communicatios + Guidelines + 2018-10-22 Joseph Myers <joseph@codesourcery.com> [BZ #23793] diff --git a/manual/startup.texi b/manual/startup.texi index 7395d32dd0..21c48cd037 100644 --- a/manual/startup.texi +++ b/manual/startup.texi @@ -1005,14 +1005,6 @@ This function actually terminates the process by raising a intercept this signal; see @ref{Signal Handling}. @end deftypefun -@c Put in by rms. Don't remove. -@cartouche -@strong{Future Change Warning:} Proposed Federal censorship regulations -may prohibit us from giving you information about the possibility of -calling this function. We would be required to say that this is not an -acceptable way of terminating a program. -@end cartouche - @node Termination Internals @subsection Termination Internals -- 2.19.1.568.g152ad8e336-goog ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines 2018-10-22 15:57 [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines Matthew Garrett @ 2018-10-22 20:34 ` Carlos O'Donell 2018-10-23 3:23 ` Alexandre Oliva 2018-10-23 21:29 ` Joseph Myers 2018-10-23 1:51 ` David Newall 2018-10-24 4:56 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Carlos O'Donell @ 2018-10-22 20:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Matthew Garrett, libc-alpha, Alexandre Oliva; +Cc: rms On 10/22/18 11:55 AM, Matthew Garrett wrote: > As documented in https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html, > GNU projects should aim to communicate in ways that are not unwelcoming. > Multiple people have indicated that they found this joke unwelcoming, > and in addition it is an unrelated and off-topic political issue: as the > Guidelines say, "Please don't raise unrelated political issues in GNU > Project discussions, because they are off-topic". Matthew, Thanks for proposing this patch. It is beyond the cool down period which ended on August 1st when glibc 2.28 was released, thank you for adhering to that cool down period. I am immensely appreciative to Richard for working on and publishing the "GNU Kind Communications Guidelines" (the URL you quote), it is in my opinion a very good guideline for the GNU project. I expect the guideline to cover all forms of communication including the manual, website, and social media, and not just email. I also appreciate your point of view that the statement in the cartouche in the manual under the abort function should be reviewed in light of the the newly published "GNU Kind Communication Guidelines." I am in support of the removal of the statement in the manual. As a GNU project maintainer for glibc, and project steward, I think it is useful to remove the statement because it has caused confusion in at least two recorded cases: Post 9 months ago with +900 views: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/48445031/why-would-it-be-illegal-to-inform-about-abort The linked reddit thread from 7 years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/d4783/federal_censorship_regulations_may_restrict/ ... and does not support the present intent of the manual, which is to provide accurate technical information for the GNU C Library. There are several other reasons for removal, but the above reasons are the most central social and technical reasons. I'd like Alex to comment on this patch and state if he has any objections, or sustained objections (block consensus) on the patch. I would also like to wait long enough for others in the community to comment. Thank you for your patience. > --- > ChangeLog | 5 +++++ > manual/startup.texi | 8 -------- > 2 files changed, 5 insertions(+), 8 deletions(-) > Granting Reviewed-by: Carlos O'Donell <carlos@redhat.com> We should review the exact commit message going in with this patch. Suggest: ~~~ As documented in https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html, GNU projects should aim to communicate in ways that are welcoming. Multiple people have indicated that they found the cartouche in the abort function documentation unwelcoming, and in addition it is an unrelated and an off-topic political issue: as the Guidelines say, "Please don't raise unrelated political issues in GNU Project discussions, because they are off-topic". The GNU C Library manual is considered an important and primary form of communication with our users. This change removes the paragraph in the @cartouche following the definition of the abort function in the "Aborting a Program" section of the manual. Signed-off-by: Matthew Garrett <matthewgarrett@google.com> Reviewed-by: Carlos O'Donell <carlos@redhat.com> ~~~ > diff --git a/ChangeLog b/ChangeLog > index 073d034c40..6b6a09d4dc 100644 > --- a/ChangeLog > +++ b/ChangeLog > @@ -1,3 +1,8 @@ > +2018-10-22 Matthew Garrett <matthewgarrett@google.com> > + > + * manual/startup.texi: Improve adherance to the Kind Communicatios > + Guidelines We should state what is removed. Suggest: * manual/startup.texi (Aborting a Program): Remove paragraph in @cartouche under abort function description. The commit message above provides the rationale. > + > 2018-10-22 Joseph Myers <joseph@codesourcery.com> > > [BZ #23793] > diff --git a/manual/startup.texi b/manual/startup.texi > index 7395d32dd0..21c48cd037 100644 > --- a/manual/startup.texi > +++ b/manual/startup.texi > @@ -1005,14 +1005,6 @@ This function actually terminates the process by raising a > intercept this signal; see @ref{Signal Handling}. > @end deftypefun > > -@c Put in by rms. Don't remove. > -@cartouche > -@strong{Future Change Warning:} Proposed Federal censorship regulations > -may prohibit us from giving you information about the possibility of > -calling this function. We would be required to say that this is not an > -acceptable way of terminating a program. > -@end cartouche > - OK. > @node Termination Internals > @subsection Termination Internals You don't need to submit a v2. This version has no substantive changes (I just requested ChangeLog and commit message cleanups). Cheers, Carlos. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines 2018-10-22 20:34 ` Carlos O'Donell @ 2018-10-23 3:23 ` Alexandre Oliva 2018-10-23 21:29 ` Joseph Myers 1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-10-23 3:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: Matthew Garrett, libc-alpha, rms On Oct 22, 2018, "Carlos O'Donell" <carlos@redhat.com> wrote: > I expect the guideline to cover all forms of communication including > the manual, website, and social media, and not just email. I'm afraid I can't find anything in the guidelines that supports that position, not in them as a whole, not in the specific paragraph about relevant political positions, that talks about 'discussions'. From my partial reading of the g-p-d thread that led to this document, I believe it is supposed to cover interactive discussions, certainly not limited to email: it could be IRC and social media, but I hesitate in considering manual and code as 'discussion' or even 'interactive' in the intended sense. I concede, however, that I could be mistaken in my understanding, so I'll leave it for the author of the document to clarify the intent and possibly amend the document. -- Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo Be the change, be Free! FSF Latin America board member GNU Toolchain Engineer Free Software Evangelist Hay que enGNUrecerse, pero sin perder la terGNUra jamás-GNUChe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines 2018-10-22 20:34 ` Carlos O'Donell 2018-10-23 3:23 ` Alexandre Oliva @ 2018-10-23 21:29 ` Joseph Myers 1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Joseph Myers @ 2018-10-23 21:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: Matthew Garrett, libc-alpha, Alexandre Oliva, rms On Mon, 22 Oct 2018, Carlos O'Donell wrote: > I am immensely appreciative to Richard for working on and publishing > the "GNU Kind Communications Guidelines" (the URL you quote), it is > in my opinion a very good guideline for the GNU project. I expect the > guideline to cover all forms of communication including the manual, > website, and social media, and not just email. If anything I'd say it's *more* important for the manual, as that's explicitly external communication rather than internal to the project. > I am in support of the removal of the statement in the manual. As a > GNU project maintainer for glibc, and project steward, I think it is > useful to remove the statement because it has caused confusion in at > least two recorded cases: > > Post 9 months ago with +900 views: > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/48445031/why-would-it-be-illegal-to-inform-about-abort > > The linked reddit thread from 7 years ago: > https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/d4783/federal_censorship_regulations_may_restrict/ I concur that it should be removed, as something that is in fact confusing to readers, and, as I noted in <https://sourceware.org/ml/libc-alpha/2018-05/msg00292.html>, extremely culturally-specific, relying on knowledge of a particular rule from one particular country. I don't think such country-specific jokes are suitable for the GNU C Library manual. As noted in the discussion referenced in the announcement of the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines, there are non-culturally-specific subjects of humour about topics that bring GNU users and developers together rather than dividing us (such as recursion, as in the name GNU itself), and those are much more suitable for the manual than anything specific to one country. Furthermore, enough people have seen this as a joke about abortion rather than as one about censorship (lacking, perhaps, sufficiently detailed knowledge of the US rule in question) to demonstrate that it *does not work* as a joke about censorship for the audience the manual has today; the authorial intent for it to be about censorship is not particularly relevant when that's not how people read it. Even if a non-country-specific censorship joke might be suitable for the manual, if it reads as being about abortion, that renders it unsuitable. -- Joseph S. Myers joseph@codesourcery.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines 2018-10-22 15:57 [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines Matthew Garrett 2018-10-22 20:34 ` Carlos O'Donell @ 2018-10-23 1:51 ` David Newall 2018-10-23 7:43 ` Richard Stallman 2018-10-24 4:56 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: David Newall @ 2018-10-23 1:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Matthew Garrett, libc-alpha; +Cc: rms On 23/10/18 2:25 am, Matthew Garrett wrote: > As documented in https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html, > GNU projects should aim to communicate in ways that are not unwelcoming. > Multiple people have indicated that they found this joke unwelcoming, > and in addition it is an unrelated and off-topic political issue: as the > Guidelines say, "Please don't raise unrelated political issues in GNU > Project discussions, because they are off-topic". It's not a project discussion, so "as the Guidelines say" is not relevant. Humour is a good thing and I oppose removing the joke. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines 2018-10-23 1:51 ` David Newall @ 2018-10-23 7:43 ` Richard Stallman 2018-10-23 15:20 ` Carlos O'Donell 2018-10-23 16:49 ` DJ Delorie 0 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2018-10-23 7:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Newall; +Cc: matthewgarrett, libc-alpha [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] Whether to keep the abort(3) joke in the C library manual depends on several broader issues. We need to resolve some of them in general before trying to decide that specific question. What I can specifically say in this context is that this joke opposes censorship, and the GNU Project opposes censorship. So it is not an unrelated political issue. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines 2018-10-23 7:43 ` Richard Stallman @ 2018-10-23 15:20 ` Carlos O'Donell 2018-10-24 4:49 ` David Newall 2018-10-24 5:45 ` Richard Stallman 2018-10-23 16:49 ` DJ Delorie 1 sibling, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Carlos O'Donell @ 2018-10-23 15:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms, David Newall; +Cc: matthewgarrett, libc-alpha On 10/23/18 1:41 AM, Richard Stallman wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > Whether to keep the abort(3) joke in the C library manual depends on > several broader issues. We need to resolve some of them in general > before trying to decide that specific question. How would you like to proceed on the resolution of these issues? Could you please enumerate the broader issues you would like resolved? It is important that we define these issues, they will form the basis of the success criteria for concluding on consensus. > What I can specifically say in this context is that this joke opposes > censorship, and the GNU Project opposes censorship. So it is not an > unrelated political issue. Matthew Garrett raised two issues, that the joke was unwelcoming, *and* that it was unrelated politically to what was published as the list of politically supported positions by the GNU Project. Could you please clarify if "anti-censorship" or "freedom of expression" is part of "(2) supporting basic human rights in computing", which *is* listed as a political position for the GNU Project? Could you also clarify what restrictions "in computing" places on those rights? In summary: - We need to define the success criteria for consensus. - To define the success criteria we need to know which broader issues need resolution before deciding on the issue of removing the joke. Thank you for your feedback. -- Cheers, Carlos. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines 2018-10-23 15:20 ` Carlos O'Donell @ 2018-10-24 4:49 ` David Newall 2018-10-25 4:34 ` Richard Stallman 2018-10-24 5:45 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: David Newall @ 2018-10-24 4:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carlos O'Donell, rms; +Cc: matthewgarrett, libc-alpha On 24/10/18 1:46 am, Carlos O'Donell wrote: > > Matthew Garrett raised two issues, that the joke was unwelcoming, *and* > that it was unrelated politically to what was published as the list > of politically supported positions by the GNU Project. I see nothing unwelcoming about the joke. Please cease this odious attempt at political correctness. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines 2018-10-24 4:49 ` David Newall @ 2018-10-25 4:34 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2018-10-25 4:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Newall; +Cc: carlos, matthewgarrett, libc-alpha [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > Matthew Garrett raised two issues, that the joke was unwelcoming, *and* > > that it was unrelated politically to what was published as the list > > of politically supported positions by the GNU Project. > I see nothing unwelcoming about the joke. Please cease this odious > attempt at political correctness. Could we please keep this discussion more kind and not harsh? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines 2018-10-23 15:20 ` Carlos O'Donell 2018-10-24 4:49 ` David Newall @ 2018-10-24 5:45 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2018-10-24 5:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: davidn, matthewgarrett, libc-alpha [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > How would you like to proceed on the resolution of these issues? Please be patient. This is going to take time. It took a few months to address just one of those general issues that make the context. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines 2018-10-23 7:43 ` Richard Stallman 2018-10-23 15:20 ` Carlos O'Donell @ 2018-10-23 16:49 ` DJ Delorie 2018-10-28 11:01 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: DJ Delorie @ 2018-10-23 16:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: libc-alpha Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > and the GNU Project opposes censorship. For the sake of completeness, could you please point out where in the GNU manifesto or the FSF's core philosophy this is spelled out? I've been participating in the GNU/FSF project for many decades, and all along I thought it was about software's freedom, not people's freedom. I have no problem with you *personally* opposing censorship, and I'm generally against it also, but if the argument is that the *project* is officially against it... citation required. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines 2018-10-23 16:49 ` DJ Delorie @ 2018-10-28 11:01 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2018-10-28 11:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: DJ Delorie; +Cc: libc-alpha [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > For the sake of completeness, could you please point out where in the > GNU manifesto or the FSF's core philosophy this is spelled out? I recall that the FSF made a statement about this, around 20 years ago, in an central and visible place (at that time). But I was unable to find it now. So I stated this in new section in the GNU coding standards about not talking about unrelated political issues in GNU packages. I've > been participating in the GNU/FSF project for many decades, and all > along I thought it was about software's freedom, not people's freedom. Software freedom means freedom for users in regard to the software. So it is a kind of people's freedom. The programs that exist today are not qualified to be considered persons, so they wouldn't be able to exercise freedoms themselves. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines 2018-10-22 15:57 [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines Matthew Garrett 2018-10-22 20:34 ` Carlos O'Donell 2018-10-23 1:51 ` David Newall @ 2018-10-24 4:56 ` Richard Stallman 2018-12-06 17:54 ` Carlos O'Donell 2 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2018-10-24 4:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Matthew Garrett; +Cc: libc-alpha, matthewgarrett [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > As documented in https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html, > GNU projects should aim to communicate in ways that are not unwelcoming. More precisely, the guidelines are about how we communicate in our discussions, not what ideas we communicate (as long as they are pertinent to the topic of the list and support the goal of the project). These guidelines as such do not apply to manuals. Kindness as a general principle surely does apply to manuals, but precisely how remains to be decided. I just installed a statement in the GNU maintainer guide saying that humor is welcome _in general_ -- that we reject the idea of "professionalism" which calls for deleting humor because it is humor. That doesn't decide the question of the abort(3) joke. There are other issues to decide before that. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines 2018-10-24 4:56 ` Richard Stallman @ 2018-12-06 17:54 ` Carlos O'Donell 2018-12-06 20:28 ` Joseph Myers 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Carlos O'Donell @ 2018-12-06 17:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms, Matthew Garrett; +Cc: libc-alpha On 10/24/18 12:48 AM, Richard Stallman wrote: > That doesn't decide the question of the abort(3) joke. There are > other issues to decide before that. I posed some questions here which remain unanswered: https://www.sourceware.org/ml/libc-alpha/2018-10/msg00449.html I am going to restate them again here since I'm seeking resolution on a way forward. How would you like to proceed on the resolution of these issues? Could you please enumerate the broader issues you would like resolved? It is important that we define these issues, they will form the basis of the success criteria for concluding on consensus. -- Cheers, Carlos. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines 2018-12-06 17:54 ` Carlos O'Donell @ 2018-12-06 20:28 ` Joseph Myers 2018-12-06 21:37 ` DJ Delorie ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Joseph Myers @ 2018-12-06 20:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: rms, Matthew Garrett, libc-alpha On Thu, 6 Dec 2018, Carlos O'Donell wrote: > On 10/24/18 12:48 AM, Richard Stallman wrote: > > That doesn't decide the question of the abort(3) joke. There are > > other issues to decide before that. > > I posed some questions here which remain unanswered: > https://www.sourceware.org/ml/libc-alpha/2018-10/msg00449.html > > I am going to restate them again here since I'm seeking resolution on > a way forward. > > How would you like to proceed on the resolution of these issues? > > Could you please enumerate the broader issues you would like resolved? I would like to suggest that we start with the following issue: * When is content that involves or depends on some country-specific context suitable for inclusion in the technical parts of GNU manuals? (This issue only concerns the technical parts of the manuals, not the content of the Invariant Sections.) It's not the most general question in this area, but it should also not be the most controversial, which is an advantage. If the conclusion is that country-specific content is not suitable for the documentation of the abort function, that would be sufficient to resolve the question of the inclusion of this joke (which I think is clearly US-specific, being about one particular US government rule, even though it's easy to interpret as being about abortion more generally), and the other issues could be considered at leisure, independenty. My suggested answer is: because GNU manuals are for an international audience, they should avoid privileging US or other country-specific viewpoints and avoid assuming such country-specific context. Content involving or depending on country-specific context is only suitable when there is something country-specific about the features being documented. So in the glibc manual, such content might be suitable for documentation of locale, timezone and other i18n facilities, especially when describing a feature that exists because of the peculiarities of some particular country or language or that is best illustrated with reference to such peculiarities, but would not be suitable for the documentation of abort. -- Joseph S. Myers joseph@codesourcery.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines 2018-12-06 20:28 ` Joseph Myers @ 2018-12-06 21:37 ` DJ Delorie 2018-12-10 9:39 ` Richard Stallman 2018-12-11 4:41 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: DJ Delorie @ 2018-12-06 21:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Joseph Myers; +Cc: libc-alpha Joseph Myers <joseph@codesourcery.com> writes: > * When is content that involves or depends on some country-specific > context suitable for inclusion in the technical parts of GNU manuals? I wonder if there are guidelines about language-specific idioms that should be avoided, strictly for the purposes of translating the manual to other languages? While not exactly the same question as the one you asked, it's kinda similar, and if the topic is active... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines 2018-12-06 20:28 ` Joseph Myers 2018-12-06 21:37 ` DJ Delorie @ 2018-12-10 9:39 ` Richard Stallman 2018-12-10 10:26 ` Florian Weimer 2020-02-25 23:10 ` Matthew Garrett 2018-12-11 4:41 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2018-12-10 9:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Joseph Myers; +Cc: carlos, matthewgarrett, libc-alpha [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > * When is content that involves or depends on some country-specific > context suitable for inclusion in the technical parts of GNU manuals? > (This issue only concerns the technical parts of the manuals, not the > content of the Invariant Sections.) That is a good example of the sort of general issues that we should decide, because the decisions about them will be the basis for deciding what to do about the abortion censorship joke. I don't see any reason not to take up this issue next. The right place for discussing these issues is gnu-community-discuss@gnu.org. I will forward your message there. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines 2018-12-10 9:39 ` Richard Stallman @ 2018-12-10 10:26 ` Florian Weimer 2018-12-11 6:36 ` Richard Stallman 2020-02-25 23:10 ` Matthew Garrett 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Florian Weimer @ 2018-12-10 10:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Stallman; +Cc: Joseph Myers, carlos, matthewgarrett, libc-alpha * Richard Stallman: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > * When is content that involves or depends on some country-specific > > context suitable for inclusion in the technical parts of GNU manuals? > > (This issue only concerns the technical parts of the manuals, not the > > content of the Invariant Sections.) > > That is a good example of the sort of general issues that we should > decide, because the decisions about them will be the basis for > deciding what to do about the abortion censorship joke. I don't > see any reason not to take up this issue next. > > The right place for discussing these issues is > gnu-community-discuss@gnu.org. I will forward your message there. How can we subscribe to this list? Thanks. Florian ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines 2018-12-10 10:26 ` Florian Weimer @ 2018-12-11 6:36 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2018-12-11 6:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Florian Weimer; +Cc: joseph, carlos, matthewgarrett, libc-alpha [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] gnu-community-private (correcting the erroneous name I gave before) is limited to GNU maintainers and developers. Any substantial contributor to GNU libc is a bona fide GNU developer and can join this list. ISTR there is a standard protocol for subscribing to a mailing list, and it should work for this list. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines 2018-12-10 9:39 ` Richard Stallman 2018-12-10 10:26 ` Florian Weimer @ 2020-02-25 23:10 ` Matthew Garrett 2020-02-25 23:14 ` Joseph Myers 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Matthew Garrett @ 2020-02-25 23:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: Joseph Myers, carlos, libc-alpha On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 7:11 PM Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote: > That is a good example of the sort of general issues that we should > decide, because the decisions about them will be the basis for > deciding what to do about the abortion censorship joke. I don't > see any reason not to take up this issue next. It's been over a year. Is there any update that can be shared? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines 2020-02-25 23:10 ` Matthew Garrett @ 2020-02-25 23:14 ` Joseph Myers 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Joseph Myers @ 2020-02-25 23:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Matthew Garrett; +Cc: rms, carlos, libc-alpha [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2285 bytes --] On Tue, 25 Feb 2020, Matthew Garrett wrote: > On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 7:11 PM Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote: > > That is a good example of the sort of general issues that we should > > decide, because the decisions about them will be the basis for > > deciding what to do about the abortion censorship joke. I don't > > see any reason not to take up this issue next. > > It's been over a year. Is there any update that can be shared? This was referring to the question: > * When is content that involves or depends on some country-specific > context suitable for inclusion in the technical parts of GNU manuals? > (This issue only concerns the technical parts of the manuals, not the > content of the Invariant Sections.) The GNU Coding Standards now say: Remember that the audience for a GNU manual (and other GNU documentation) is global, and that it will be used for years, maybe decades. This means that the reader could have very different cultural reference points. Decades from now, all but old folks will have very different cultural reference points; many things that "everyone knows about" today may be mostly forgotten. For this reason, try to avoid writing in a way that depends on cultural reference points for proper understanding, or that refers to them in ways that would impede reading for someone that doesn't recognize them. Likewise, be conservative in your choice of words (aside from technical terms), linguistic constructs, and spelling: aim to make them intelligible to readers from ten years ago. In any contest for trendiness, GNU writing should not even qualify to enter. It is ok to refer once in a rare while to spatially or temporally localized reference points or facts, if it is directly pertinent or as an aside. Changing these few things (which in any case stand out) when they no longer make sense will not be a lot of work. By contrast, it is always proper to refer to concepts of GNU and the free software movement, when they are pertinent. These are a central part of our message, so we should take advantage of opportunities to mention them. They are fundamental moral positions, so they will rarely if ever change. -- Joseph S. Myers joseph@codesourcery.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines 2018-12-06 20:28 ` Joseph Myers 2018-12-06 21:37 ` DJ Delorie 2018-12-10 9:39 ` Richard Stallman @ 2018-12-11 4:41 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2018-12-11 4:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Joseph Myers; +Cc: carlos, matthewgarrett, libc-alpha [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] The correct name of the list is gnu-community-private@gnu.org. Sorry for misremembering. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2020-02-25 23:14 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 22+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2018-10-22 15:57 [PATCH] Improve adherance to the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines Matthew Garrett 2018-10-22 20:34 ` Carlos O'Donell 2018-10-23 3:23 ` Alexandre Oliva 2018-10-23 21:29 ` Joseph Myers 2018-10-23 1:51 ` David Newall 2018-10-23 7:43 ` Richard Stallman 2018-10-23 15:20 ` Carlos O'Donell 2018-10-24 4:49 ` David Newall 2018-10-25 4:34 ` Richard Stallman 2018-10-24 5:45 ` Richard Stallman 2018-10-23 16:49 ` DJ Delorie 2018-10-28 11:01 ` Richard Stallman 2018-10-24 4:56 ` Richard Stallman 2018-12-06 17:54 ` Carlos O'Donell 2018-12-06 20:28 ` Joseph Myers 2018-12-06 21:37 ` DJ Delorie 2018-12-10 9:39 ` Richard Stallman 2018-12-10 10:26 ` Florian Weimer 2018-12-11 6:36 ` Richard Stallman 2020-02-25 23:10 ` Matthew Garrett 2020-02-25 23:14 ` Joseph Myers 2018-12-11 4:41 ` Richard Stallman
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