From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org (eggs.gnu.org [IPv6:2001:470:142:3::10]) by sourceware.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE6EA3858C50 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2024 03:01:25 +0000 (GMT) DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.4.2 sourceware.org BE6EA3858C50 Authentication-Results: sourceware.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=gnu.org Authentication-Results: sourceware.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=gnu.org ARC-Filter: OpenARC Filter v1.0.0 sourceware.org BE6EA3858C50 Authentication-Results: server2.sourceware.org; arc=none smtp.remote-ip=2001:470:142:3::10 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=sourceware.org; s=key; t=1708398087; cv=none; b=iKSrUGSQVIik101MHexjxCD6pfH0sNw1t1429Pw/RV65RGWYuFy6CRY8IUWhkVrPWf5uufQGsFRA88cDW2agZHvYwBdXvkPIc5y274aM3G/0EBD0yvSOV8rUYcWorBkAXLgDkrxYDqw7dwiAw6chUMs06vMJCk06Dqyd+mH7rPI= ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=sourceware.org; s=key; t=1708398087; c=relaxed/simple; bh=L85JrrL1TN2lXrOExcXoRDsaznHb3aUtakF6lXpRKiU=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version; b=Lg1J3fsHrgJxCODY8i3jayHcFBy8RXCWGYMeXy1GwGwieMaS1TRAM5wuU4iqQY7YfKf14+hBwKFnokLMWD2ugw/MpcQXdaIUqVeMUN+q12Z/9uwKVaPhW06XAOFTBAeSJzbu5SoOq+ZAtDyf02LLK8mPQpjB7BIIwA+CvKavaDk= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; server2.sourceware.org Received: from linux-libre.fsfla.org ([2001:470:142:5::54] helo=free.home) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rcGNo-00018D-Mr; Mon, 19 Feb 2024 22:01:25 -0500 Received: from livre (livre.home [172.31.160.2]) by free.home (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 41K319dg004436 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 20 Feb 2024 00:01:09 -0300 From: Alexandre Oliva To: DJ Delorie Cc: libc-alpha@sourceware.org Subject: Re: [Action Required] glibc decision to use CTI services. In-Reply-To: (DJ Delorie's message of "Mon, 19 Feb 2024 17:03:31 -0500") Organization: Free thinker, not speaking for the GNU Project References: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 00:01:09 -0300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.84 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,KAM_DMARC_STATUS,KAM_SHORT,SPF_HELO_PASS,SPF_PASS,TXREP,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.6 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.6 (2021-04-09) on server2.sourceware.org List-Id: On Feb 19, 2024, DJ Delorie wrote: > Alexandre Oliva writes: >> Outsourcing an individual's or a group's computing is SaaSS even when >> using Free Software, > You just argued that we should all stop using sourceware.org or gnu.org. Your response just confirms that there's some misunderstanding around the notion of SaaSS. You may be confusing it with SaSS. The services that gnu.org and sourceware.org offer are publishing and communication, that are not any one party's computing, and that necessarily involve more than one party. These are not SaaSS. See "Distinguishing SaaSS from Other Network Services" on https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.en.html You may also get a better understanding by reading "When the User Is a Collective Activity Or an Organization" on the same web page. It applies to our case. > I respect the SaaSS argument, but we have to draw the line somewhere or > we can't work together at all. Trust has to be a factor. The line is drawn, it just needs to be understood and respected. It has enabled us to work together for a long time. Currently, we're not outsourcing our computing, so there's no loss of software freedom, regardless of whom we trust. Trust may play a role when it comes to communication and publishing services, and we have a reasonably trusted party we've all relied on for a long time. There's a push to move them to a third party that is not uniformly better trusted, which is a problem in itself. But the anathema IMHO is that the plans AFAICT involve outsourcing our computing. That would be crossing a line that nobody should cross, and we, the Free Software movement, as the reference in this issue, must be the change we wish to see in the world, not seek ways to compromise. -- Alexandre Oliva, happy hacker https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/ Free Software Activist GNU Toolchain Engineer Disinformation flourishes because many people care deeply about injustice but very few check the facts. Think Assange & Stallman. The empires strike back