From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3904 invoked by alias); 5 Oct 2019 08:56:37 -0000 Mailing-List: contact libc-locales-help@sourceware.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Help: , Sender: libc-locales-owner@sourceware.org Received: (qmail 3224 invoked by uid 89); 5 Oct 2019 08:56:37 -0000 Authentication-Results: sourceware.org; auth=none X-Spam-SWARE-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 spammy=H*r:sk:DHE_RSA X-HELO: eggs.gnu.org Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2019 08:56:00 -0000 From: Keld Simonsen To: Rafal Luzynski Cc: Mikhail Gribanov , libc-alpha@sourceware.org, bug-glibc-locales@gnu.org Subject: Re: Incorrect days of the week in ru_UA locale Message-ID: <20191005085621.GA8187@www5.open-std.org> References: <1260007467.786529.1569624500330@poczta.nazwa.pl> <20190928173736.GA12877@rap.rap.dk> <1380310075.857991.1569959113276@poczta.nazwa.pl> <20191001205442.GB12438@www5.open-std.org> <394513676.949674.1570054369267@poczta.nazwa.pl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <394513676.949674.1570054369267@poczta.nazwa.pl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 93.90.116.65 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-SW-Source: 2019-q4/txt/msg00009.txt.bz2 On Thu, Oct 03, 2019 at 12:12:49AM +0200, Rafal Luzynski wrote: > 1.10.2019 22:54 Keld Simonsen wrote: > > [...] > > I am also a native speaker of one of those languages, Danish, >=20 > A test: >=20 > $ LANG=3Dda_DK.utf8 date > tor 3 okt 00:00:05 CEST 2019 > $ LANG=3Dru_RU.utf8 date > ???? ?????? 3 00:00:23 CEST 2019 > $ LANG=3Dpl_PL.utf8 date > czw, 3 pa?? 2019, 00:00:31 CEST >=20 > Do I understand correctly that "tor" is correct here? If yes, > it is OK, I am not an expert at your language. :-) For Danish, this is fine, for listings and logs etc. The beginning of a sentence is normally capitalized in Danish, but this is = not a sentence. And having the day an month names capitalized leads confusion, you see a lo= t of occurrances in just plain text, where these names are capitalized - and people believe= ths is correct, also because=20 this is what is done in English. Also I am associated with the official Danish standarsization organisation,= where I need to state Danish info in accordance with official conventions. and capitalizing the first letter because it wou= ld normally occur in the beginning of a sentence is IMHO a hack. using 3-letter abbreviatons is posix style. In danish I think 2-letter are = more cmmon, but the 3-letters are wel understood, as you in 5 cases just need to add 'dag' to get the full name of the day: man, ons= , fre, l=F8r, s=F8n, for month names 2 letters are not enough but 3 letters are fine in Danish. I believe the abday and abmon specs are for use in posix utilities, so they= should be posix-style, eg. all same length so file lisings with ls, and log entries format nicely. For other uses of more cultural oriented we should add new keywords, like m= aybe abday_cult >=20 > I would say that Polish "czw" is not correct. Indeed, normally > we write weekday names (and month names) lowercase but as this is > the beginning of a sentence the uppercase first letter would be > better. For the same reason I think that Russian "????" is correct > even if CLDR says otherwise. I would rather solve this with a formatter spec to capitalice the first let= ter for example month names would nomally not be the first word in a sentence, = an often the day-of-month would precede it. capitalizing day names and not month names - against the rules of the langu= age, is IMHO a mess. > > and moreover I was the initial contributer of about 60 of the locales i= ncl > > ru_RU, > > that Urich Drepper picked up for glibc. I am also the editor of ISO 146= 52 > > and ISO 30112 that provided extensions > > beyond Posix i18n functionality, and I provide guidance for their use. >=20 > I know and therefore I respect your opinion. >=20 > > My advice is that this bad policy to have wrongly > > capitalized names here.=20 >=20 > I think we don't have a consensus here and therefore I will not push > this commit unless someone convinces me to push it. >=20 > > [...] > > > Back about the main problem, I would like to post a patch which would > > > be the best explanation what I mean in this particular case. > >=20 > > What would it say?=20 >=20 > I think I posted it just while you were writing your message. > I will appreciate if you take a look. It does not say clearly whether > upper/lowercase letters are correct, just that ru_UA should be a copy > of ru_RU. I saw your advice and I agree. Just do the copy. Keld