From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20620 invoked by alias); 2 Oct 2019 07:36:08 -0000 Mailing-List: contact libc-locales-help@sourceware.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Help: , Sender: libc-locales-owner@sourceware.org Received: (qmail 20538 invoked by uid 89); 2 Oct 2019 07:36:07 -0000 Authentication-Results: sourceware.org; auth=none X-Spam-SWARE-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM,SPF_SOFTFAIL autolearn=no version=3.3.1 spammy=HX-Spam-Relays-External:4864, H*r:4864, H*RU:4864, HX-detected-operating-system:Genre X-HELO: eggs.gnu.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=D537GvQ48Ud76xRmWOyF+A4qeko6f95TXr8jupVKQGk=; b=YymolrHQJvqfZ6lGqRLwq12dvtJGJ+ELpNab/f2GeUMhRP/uLlaepNZO5nnccWJ2pI iPQupFBW4LPUx9LeErRQO6M3j++ehsBVwaOrGeGvm8NsqYNDH6ZFebuZ1voT+BqFCJf5 XmcJgEo4jE2hQYDJcnilNvDojgGu5Rd/NcmRX3ZFTrHB+HPF/u/E/L2Wx+yz1rKB8XMa VOJs1i97O8PAPPSK2/lBPVKCMQyGpykG9Ccgqca6NHATgYukmR/cu93t4p0wSqzcKNT9 oUz+lwPPUvLfCIFEj70t4XR3GMSPqumzk18kQng4ahDM4ycBCe73Q7vHvW0FD/d4RPmv O0Sw== MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1260007467.786529.1569624500330@poczta.nazwa.pl> <20190928173736.GA12877@rap.rap.dk> <1380310075.857991.1569959113276@poczta.nazwa.pl> <20191001205442.GB12438@www5.open-std.org> In-Reply-To: From: Mikhail Gribanov Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2019 07:36:00 -0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Incorrect days of the week in ru_UA locale To: Keld Simonsen , Rafal Luzynski , libc-alpha@sourceware.org, bug-glibc-locales@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4864:20::236 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-SW-Source: 2019-q4/txt/msg00004.txt.bz2 >Since the solution is controversial I would like to hear >feedback from Mikhail and/or Keld (CC). This patch does not >determine whether lower or uppercase is correct, just says >that ru_RU and ru_UA should be the same. Just use the same representation for abday as in ru_RU as it is (the first letter is large, the rest is small). It is correct. I want ru_UA locale to inherit all translations from ru_RU (months, days of the week, etc.) excluding government data (currency sign, phone number, etc.). So that there is no such thing that the days of the week in these locales are written differently (like now). They use the same language, therefore the translation must be the same. My native language is Russian and Ukrainian, I'm not a linguist, so I=E2=80=99ll only express my point of view. Abbreviations for days of the w= eek (two letters) and month (three letters) in Russian and Ukrainian in everyday life is always written with a first capital letter ("=D0=9F=D0=BD", "=D0=92=D1=82"). But if this is due to some limitations - then use small le= tters (but it is wrong). It=E2=80=99s easier for me, as an end user, to correct format string in app than to correct a translation every time. >You replied to me off-list. I don't mind this but was this intentional? My mistake, I use the web version of gmail, maybe pressed the wrong button. =D1=81=D1=80, 2 =D0=BE=D0=BA=D1=82. 2019 =D0=B3. =D0=B2 10:33, Mikhail Grib= anov : > > >Since the solution is controversial I would like to hear > >feedback from Mikhail and/or Keld (CC). This patch does not > >determine whether lower or uppercase is correct, just says > >that ru_RU and ru_UA should be the same. > > Just use the same representation for abday as in ru_RU as it is (the > first letter is large, the rest is small). It is correct. > > I want ru_UA locale to inherit all translations from ru_RU (months, > days of the week, etc.) excluding government data (currency sign, > phone number, etc.). So that there is no such thing that the days of > the week in these locales are written differently (like now). They use > the same language, therefore the translation must be the same. > > My native language is Russian and Ukrainian, I'm not a linguist, so > I=E2=80=99ll only express my point of view. Abbreviations for days of the= week > (two letters) and month (three letters) in Russian and Ukrainian in > everyday life is always written with a first capital letter ("=D0=9F=D0= =BD", > "=D0=92=D1=82"). But if this is due to some limitations - then use small = letters > (but it is wrong). It=E2=80=99s easier for me, as an end user, to correct > format string in app than to correct a translation every time. > > >You replied to me off-list. I don't mind this but was this intentional? > > My mistake, I use the web version of gmail, maybe pressed the wrong butto= n. > > =D0=B2=D1=82, 1 =D0=BE=D0=BA=D1=82. 2019 =D0=B3. =D0=B2 23:54, Keld Simon= sen : > > > > On Tue, Oct 01, 2019 at 09:45:13PM +0200, Rafal Luzynski wrote: > > > 28.09.2019 19:37 Keld Simonsen wrote: > > > > > > > > I think we should use lowercase that is what we do with manuyothe e= uropean > > > > locales > > > > and it is the culturally correct form > > > > > > > > keld > > > > > > Thank you for your feedback, Keld. Unfortunately, as a native speaker > > > of one of those languages I must say that this is more complex. > > > Indeed, names of the weeks and months are usually lowercase but > > > when they appear in the beginning of a sentence they are uppercase. > > > I am afraid that a name of a weekday more often appears in the beginn= ing > > > of the sentence than in the middle. To the extent that some locales > > > prefer the weekday and/or month names to start with the uppercase. > > > > I am also a native speaker of one of those languages, Danish, and moreo= ver I was the initial contributer of about 60 of the locales incl ru_RU, > > that Urich Drepper picked up for glibc. I am also the editor of ISO 146= 52 and ISO 30112 that provided extensions > > beyond Posix i18n functionality, and I provide guidance for their use.= My advice is that this bad policy to have wrongly > > capitalized names here. > > > > > What we actually need is a new format modifier to control the first > > > letter being uppercase/lowercase. Currently we have only "^" to conv= ert > > > whole substring (e.g., a weekday name) to uppercase, and "#" to swap > > > the upper/lowercase. It was discussed in the past, there is a bug > > > report and a proposal to ensure that "^#" works as a converter to > > > lowercase but this is not enough because I would like to see one more > > > format modifier to convert to titlecase (that is: the first letter > > > being uppercase). I would be happy to work on that problem but > > > it is a separate case and would need more discussion. > > > > I agree with you, and it has been my plan as editor of ISO 30112 to add= functionality along the lines that you suggest, > > without having a firm propoal. > > > > > Back about the main problem, I would like to post a patch which would > > > be the best explanation what I mean in this particular case. > > > > What would it say? > > > > keld