[Bug localedata/1015] There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[Bug localedata/1015] There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[ihar.hrachyshka at gmail dot com]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1015

--- Comment #22 from booxter <ihar.hrachyshka at gmail dot com> 2010-11-06 13:15:25 UTC ---
Ok, let me show you that this language variant is quite strong to have its own
locale.

1. There are 2 (two) Belarusian Wikipedias: be.wikipedia.org (IANA:
be_BY-1959acad, be_BY in glibc) and be-x-old.wikipedia.org (IANA: be_BY-tarask)
with quite similar articles count: 24914 (be) vs. 29004 (be-x-old).

2. As for localisation, we have different open- and closed-source software
having either one or another language variant translations. F.e. OpenOffice,
Mozilla Suite, Firefox, Thunderbird, KDE work with academic language variant
(be_BY-1959acad) though GNOME, Gimp, Xfce4 have tarashkevitsa (be_BY-tarask)
translation (the latter was forced to use be_BY locale till now because there
is no proper place for their contributions). Mediawiki and some other software
packages have both language versions translation.

3. As for real life, Belarusian Academy of Science, schools, state publishers
and media work in -1959acad version. Though some other popular media work in
alternative, -tarask version (mainly: Radio Liberty for Belarus, Radio Racyja,
ARCHE, some private publishers).

I don't know about any official statistics on the percentage of usage of each
of the variants but I think every Belarusian language user will support that
this percentage can vary (80/20 to 20/80 percentage in different spheres with
total stats of about 75/25 for -1959acad and -tarask respectively).

You can read a bit more on the roots of two language norm variants existance
on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taraškievica

So this is not the case of "fringe variations plaguing glibc locale database."
:)

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[Bug localedata/1015] There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[pasky at ucw dot cz]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1015

--- Comment #23 from Petr Baudis <pasky at ucw dot cz> 2012-04-04 15:48:51 UTC ---
*** Bug 4020 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Bug localedata/1015] There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[pasky at ucw dot cz]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1015

Petr Baudis <pasky at ucw dot cz> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|                            |375gnu at gmail dot com

--- Comment #24 from Petr Baudis <pasky at ucw dot cz> 2012-04-04 15:49:02 UTC ---
*** Bug 7014 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Bug localedata/1015] There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[375gnu at gmail dot com]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1015

--- Comment #25 from Hleb Valoshka <375gnu at gmail dot com> 2012-12-28 19:11:04 UTC ---
Hey, guys, how much years do you need more to accept this trivial patch and
close at last this annoying bug?

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[Bug localedata/1015] be_BY@tarask: new locale

[vapier at gentoo dot org]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1015

Mike Frysinger <vapier at gentoo dot org> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Summary|There is a need for an      |be_BY@tarask: new locale
                   |alternative belarusian      |
                   |locale                      |

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[Bug localedata/1015] be_BY@tarask: new locale

[maiku.fabian at gmail dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1015

Mike FABIAN <maiku.fabian at gmail dot com> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|                            |maiku.fabian at gmail dot com

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[Bug localedata/1015] be_BY@tarask: new locale

[maiku.fabian at gmail dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1015

Mike FABIAN <maiku.fabian at gmail dot com> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|                            |maiku.fabian at gmail dot com

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[Bug localedata/1015] be_BY@tarask: new locale

[digitalfreak at lingonborough dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1015

Rafal Luzynski <digitalfreak at lingonborough dot com> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
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             Status|ASSIGNED                    |RESOLVED
                 CC|                            |digitalfreak@lingonborough.
                   |                            |com
         Resolution|---                         |WONTFIX

--- Comment #26 from Rafal Luzynski <digitalfreak at lingonborough dot com> ---
This is what I've received from a native speaker:

"I don't think this change should be done. Since the time
the bug was reported, usage of the alternative spelling has
significantly decreased both in localization projects as well as in
real/web life, and I don't believe there are a lot of people who would
contribute in this specific locale variant. Having all those variants
at this point is just confusing for users. If I were you, I would just
close the bug without a fix.

Ihar"

Therefore I'm closing this.

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[Bug localedata/1015] be_BY@tarask: new locale

[375gnu at gmail dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1015

--- Comment #27 from Hleb Valoshka <375gnu at gmail dot com> ---
I absolutely disagree with such bug treatment. Although Ihar does not use it
this does not mean that nobody else uses it.

Of course it no easy to properly work with @tarask locale variant (incorrect
spelling of some strings etc) because the bug was opened 12 (TWELVE!) years ago
without any actions from glibc maintainers.

This is a trivial case, this is not posting glibc to brand new kernel. It's
just a locale definitions, it's attached, what prevents glibc maintainers to
simply copy it into source tree?

Is this how communication with community should be handled?

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[Bug localedata/1015] be_BY@tarask: new locale

[cjlhomeaddress at gmail dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1015

Chris Leonard <cjlhomeaddress at gmail dot com> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
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                 CC|                            |cjlhomeaddress at gmail dot com

--- Comment #28 from Chris Leonard <cjlhomeaddress at gmail dot com> ---
If a Unicode CLDR locale variant is existing, I think that glibc will
absolutely follow suit.  The simple reality is that the glibc project is
primarily a collection of C-hackers and not linguists.  The Unicode CLDR effort
has a deeper bench of linguistic experience by virtue of developing Unicode
representation.  I personally volunteer my own efforts to assist in developing
the CLDR locale (at least the translated bits) in support of a minority
language community, but I don't think making glibc intervene on internicene
conflicts is very productive.  I can offer Pootle hosting of PO files
representing CLDR regions, languages and scripts to assist a team in developing
the core bits of a CLDR locale.  Actions will speak much louder than ticket
comments.

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[Bug localedata/1015] be_BY@tarask: new locale

[cjlhomeaddress at gmail dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1015

--- Comment #29 from Chris Leonard <cjlhomeaddress at gmail dot com> ---
To start on a CLDR locale for be@tarask

Register as a translator here:

https://translate.sugarlabs.org/accounts/register/

Work on these three CLDR related PO files. conveniently including Wikipedia
links for those who are not geographers, linguists or orthographers.

https://translate.sugarlabs.org/be@tarask/

When that is done we'll work on getting the rest of the Unicode CLDR Survey
tool completed (plural forms, etc.)


You have my personal commitment of support in trying to develop a CLDR locale
for be@tarask, as Sugar Labs Translation Team coordinator I work with many
digitally disadvantaged languages and firmly believe in linguistic
self-determination.

Does that sound like a fair alternative to making C-hackers get involved in an
internal Belarusinan issue?

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[Bug localedata/1015] be_BY@tarask: new locale

[maiku.fabian at gmail dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1015

--- Comment #30 from Mike FABIAN <maiku.fabian at gmail dot com> ---
(In reply to Hleb Valoshka from comment #27)
> I absolutely disagree with such bug treatment. Although Ihar does not use it
> this does not mean that nobody else uses it.

If there are people who really want to use it today, we will add it.

> Of course it no easy to properly work with @tarask locale variant (incorrect
> spelling of some strings etc) because the bug was opened 12 (TWELVE!) years
> ago without any actions from glibc maintainers.

We are trying to improve, Rafał and me are currently going through the list
of open bugs related to locales and try to work through that backlog.

> This is a trivial case, this is not posting glibc to brand new kernel. It's
> just a locale definitions, it's attached, what prevents glibc maintainers to
> simply copy it into source tree?

Adding locales is not without cost, each locale needs about 2 MB in
the binary. Some distributions still install all available locales
always by default (for example openSUSE and Fedora do
this). Therefore, having more locales will make the default install
larger.  That is OK for locales which are used by some people, but
adding stuff which nobody uses makes no sense.

And it is sometimes hard for us to figure out whether there are
really any users or not, especially for old bug reports where there
was no activity for a few years.

As Chris Leonard writes, if a locales exists in CLDR, this is also
an indication that it is really used by somebody.

Recently I added a ca_ES.utf8@valencia locale, there I also had
some doubts first whether there are people really interested in using this.
But when I saw that ca_ES_VALENCIA.xml exists in CLDR, I thought:
“OK, this proves that there is real user interest in that locale”.

> Is this how communication with community should be handled?

We want to be nice to the community, but it is sometimes hard for
us to find out which language communities are really active
and which are not.

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[Bug localedata/1015] be_BY@tarask: new locale

[digitalfreak at lingonborough dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1015

Rafal Luzynski <digitalfreak at lingonborough dot com> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|RESOLVED                    |REOPENED
         Resolution|WONTFIX                     |---

--- Comment #31 from Rafal Luzynski <digitalfreak at lingonborough dot com> ---
Thank you Mike and Chris for replying while I was traveling. Indeed, we feel
more comfortable to add or modify locale data if they are copied from CLDR.
Actually our long term goal is to import locale data from CLDR automatically.
Adding locales which are not present in CLDR is possible but always tricky: how
to verify if a locale is correct? how to tell if a community willing to use the
locale really exists? In this case I was told that it does not exist.

So, Hleb, please prove that the community (at least one person) exists and file
a ticket asking to add the locale to CLDR. I suggest to add this locale to
glibc (that means: I or someone else will add) as soon as it draws some
reasonable attention from CLDR maintainers. I don't need to wait until it is
closed and published. For now I reopen this bug report.

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