Re: [PING^8][PATCH v12] Locales: Cyrillic -> ASCII transliteration [BZ #2872]

["Diego (Egor) Kobylkin" <egor@kobylkin.com>]

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Hi Carlos et al. 


On Friday, June 7, 2019 2:57 AM, Carlos O'Donell <codonell@redhat.com> wrote:
> I have a weak preference for 1. However, I would change my preference if
> someone showed me existing prior implementations that did 1 or 2.

1. gibc already translits letters and ligatures capitalized in locale/C-translit.h.in:
"\x00c6"	"AE"	# <U00C6> LATIN CAPITAL LETTER AE
"\x0132"	"IJ"	# <U0132> LATIN CAPITAL LIGATURE IJ

2. I would just like to quote myself from 2018: 


"collisions due to "one symbol capitalization" would cause irreversible damage to data. 

For a library like glibc this seems to be a very relevant issue to consider..."

On 03.11.18 00:27, Egor Kobylkin wrote:> On 02.11.18 23:22, Rafal Luzynski wrote:
>>> * Consistently transliterate single uppercase Cyrillic letters to
>>> sequences of all uppercase Latin letters in all languages
>>> (whenever a Cyrillic letter is transliterated to more than one
>>> Latin letter), for example "Ї" is now transliterated as "YI" rather
>>> than "Yi".
>> I think you have not yet explained whether this is required by any
>> existing standard (please provide links) or whether this is your
>> genuine idea to distinguish between the cases like "Ш" transliterated > to "Sh" and
>   "Сх" also transliterated to "Sh".
> 

> I remember seeing this form of the capitalization it in actual
> transliterated texts long time ago but can't find a formal description
> as of now. Just don't want to claim this to be my original idea.
> 

>>> The choice for YO, SH, YA, ZH etc. is to avoid naming collisions for
>>> example for "Сх" and "Ш" that would both transliterate to Sh:
>>> With SH:"Схема"->"Shema" but "Шема"->"SHema"
>>> With Sh:"Схема"->"Shema" and "Шема"->"Shema". Collision!
>>> This is important e.g. for renaming files, grouping as in using uniq >> etc.
> As for the users - I am a user and I have demonstrated the use cases
> where the collisions due to "one symbol capitalization" would cause
> irreversible damage to data. For a library like glibc this seems like a
> relevant issue to consider.
> 

> The "two symbol capitalization" on the other hand would prevent
> collision and can be easily corrected in the userspace if needed
> with something like
> 

> foo="SHema"
> foo="${foo:0:1}$(tr '[:upper:]' '[:lower:]' <<<${foo:1})"
> echo "$foo"
> Shema
> 

> It looks like everyone really using transliteration for something
> sensitive already have done it the userspace since at least 2006 when
> this bug was first logged. So we won't break the official use cases
> where the capitalization should be done in a certain way. But we will
> prevent new bugs due to collision if we use "two symbol capitalization"
> indeed.
> 

> Happy to hear arguments to the contrary.


Bests,
Diego

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Friday, June 7, 2019 2:57 AM, Carlos O'Donell <codonell@redhat.com> wrote:

> On 6/6/19 5:31 PM, Rafal Luzynski wrote:
> 

> > > > Possible answers (Cyrillic -> Latin Extended -> ASCII):
> > > > 

> > > > 1.  "Ш" -> "Š" -> "SH"
> > > >     e.g.: "Шема" -> "Šema" -> "SHema"
> > > >     "Схема" ----------> "Shema"
> > > >     

> > > > 2.  "Ш" -> "Š" -> "Sh"
> > > >     e.g.: "Шема" -> "Šema" -> "Shema"
> > > >     "Схема" ----------> "Shema"
> > > >     

> > > > 

> > > > Personally I don't like the answer 1. because "SHema" looks weird
> > > > to me. Egor in turn does not like the answer 2. because the output
> > > > string becomes ambiguous.
> > > > Should we maybe have a smart algorithm which would select the title
> > > > case or the upper case of the output characters depending on the
> > > > context in the word? Note that it would not resolve the problem of
> > > > the output text being ambiguous.
> > > 

> > > It seems clear that there is no one right/wrong answer but it's a matter
> > > of preference, especially the way this currently works. It might be an
> > > improvement to output (for instance) SH instead of Sh if all the other
> > > letters of a word are upper-case as well but not sure what would help
> > > with the result being unambiguous.
> > 

> > I think you refer to the idea of implementing a smart algorithm which would
> > adapt the lower/upper case depending on the context but indeed it would
> > not resolve the problem of ambiguity.
> > So, the smart algorithm aside, what should be the preferred transliteration
> > rule?
> 

> I have a weak preference for 1. However, I would change my preference if
> someone showed me existing prior implementations that did 1 or 2.
> 

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 

> Cheers,
> Carlos.


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