From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qk1-x72c.google.com (mail-qk1-x72c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72c]) by sourceware.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08B693858D28 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2021 20:03:24 +0000 (GMT) DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.4.1 sourceware.org 08B693858D28 Authentication-Results: sourceware.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=gmail.com Authentication-Results: sourceware.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=gmail.com Received: by mail-qk1-x72c.google.com with SMTP id m192so15858404qke.2 for ; Tue, 07 Dec 2021 12:03:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=7htZAGuOV8Ne8acXq22x0vDR2m9tQ/MhQKYZanPrJHA=; b=Uh8Pa7TqrkMXrPXYL1iSZFL+i89t7Vt/r8jzPb9QwgbIvv2okUAxom7r4oNVTbCI2s Z9NV3uWlRQ38tM9MrSQCzVbPXij9N7JdFwJyzzkZqfMa/EUJMPzr/LZv6akxwRo86yTh Uh37hDNZOJmHkUnvIm3tOqQlRFO+0Y7hGr5RgW+zQ9DrNzemJ2/wbZpqOMT7GDQgRSQ2 1TbEQXqPJQKV/Y1k/oU+C9HVmq7r1ZXAZqzSXGdGcpHsjtsCPy5bOzfJQj0qNnOXBeer wC1VFQC2c2GJngptulHujl/XaYjCWWpJGSzejPLWey+Y1Dk96XOHzFGHeIbrdqAL6MX5 sXfw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=7htZAGuOV8Ne8acXq22x0vDR2m9tQ/MhQKYZanPrJHA=; b=E9nxCeG/LXUuXMLZ+8mhExFFuJf7Mlm8Xm04d8zu2kix3rghR53LwbfbhXCHx4F6q8 gDHddOgMN7wDSjvXU1QkHfOKdczb3OGffp+s+JjVJsAP0V5lerzAodQYbv10UGu6XbRa LPrAqR4qGkJGGV5pbimiJ1fvmUBIqy/tugGAV/ZsLZ/wVk5R6Kdjevw+eHpYR91q4c2d J+7ceLRZxyR2FxXmFQZhZbpYvyedJR++rEwBgMg+BKYv/1L+aLmkXVGJ0xBSXZjPUYrf v5bQDhBx15xfZr8lLHA24Jzm+HhNB5AOgGdRn9ZvgMQXBnXj7KIHfrJJx8CDL9Jjz2v3 Z1sQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530O7Ctg7zND+n/EIZ+6pIqnzYFaq8rBhBCp9pyNIKiaf+X6QLkI 4tHbdgOTupLSRnJLiYvemas9iq4lbva0YR5GJInd6ylsbA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyn0XFQbJUFYacaetE47MRx8jwF1GNVtg0wowB9JUzstv3JU+6dC4yigsXvUptRPnppTHMZcQKZam1ZV3VQaq4= X-Received: by 2002:a37:9ace:: with SMTP id c197mr1672972qke.283.1638907403439; Tue, 07 Dec 2021 12:03:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20211207125624.5465-1-jon.turney@dronecode.org.uk> In-Reply-To: From: C Howland Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 15:03:12 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Fw: [PATCH] Enable automake silent rules To: newlib@sourceware.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00, DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, DKIM_VALID_EF, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, KAM_SHORT, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_PASS, TXREP autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on server2.sourceware.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: newlib@sourceware.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Newlib mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2021 20:03:27 -0000 On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 at 14:51, Mike Frysinger wrote: > On 07 Dec 2021 11:10, C Howland wrote: > > Should this really be made the new default? > > yes > > > I personally don't want it as a default because I want to see > > command line arguments. Easy for me to get different, but only knowing > > how. That leads to the next question. > > then use the standard `make V=1` or `./configure --disable-silent-rules` > > > Given that silent were made default, it is a big change in terms of > > what people see. How would you know to change it? (New feature, most > > people are far from experts in automake.) Therefore, the directions most > > definitely would need something added that explains it. (Without knowing > > about it, I can see it taking someone a long time to chase down why they > > suddenly lost the make output.) Something along the lines of Jon's > > explanation in the patch email needs to end up in README and probably > also > > printed by a configure help. > > you can make this argument about any change. we shouldn't be paralyzed by > historical behavior and never make progress. the automake manual provides > background info about why chatty make is not a good thing. > I did not at all say that we should not do it. I just pointed out there are reasons some people might not want it as the new default, while acknowledging that others might (e.g you and Corinna) and that it is a very visible one that needs additional consideration. > https://www.gnu.org/software/automake/manual/automake.html#Silencing-Make > > the option is standard in the GNU ecosystem and adoption rate is only going > up. it's already in the --help of configure. no one has to know or be an > expert in automake to find it. > > OK, good. But this underscores the need to know something for a change for such a large impact. (Why would one look under configure when make output has a very large change?) > adding the option to the newlib/README sounds reasonable since it already > has a bunch of these. want to send a patch ? > -mike > The whole point of my response is that a README entry should be part of the patch to begin with--you should be supplying it. (I didn't know about the help in configure, what else would I miss?) Craig