yahoo.com address on gcc-patches

yahoo.com address on gcc-patches

[Mike Stump]

Yahoo.com has set their dmarc policy to reject all email that can’t pass verification:

  https://dmarcian.com/dmarc-inspector/yahoo.com

Such a dmarc policy is not presently compatible with mailing lists, nor are mailing lists presently compatible with this dmarc policy.  dmarc uses dkim under the hood to verify email.  Mailing lists work in part by rewriting email and resending mail, both of which can cause email to fail to verify.

Because of this, all yahoo addresses should be removed from all mailing lists.  In particular dw <limegreensocks@yahoo.com> is on the gcc-patches mailing list and is causing bounced messages to people that post to the mailing list.

See google("yahoo mailing list dmarc”) for more information.

I’m emailing today, as I am one of those people seeing the bounced messages:

Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
gcc-patches@gcc.gnu.org mailing list.


Messages to you from the gcc-patches mailing list seem to
have been bouncing. I've attached a copy of the first bounce
message I received.

If this message bounces too, I will send you a probe. If the probe bounces,
I will remove your address from the gcc-patches mailing list,
without further notice.


I've kept a list of which messages from the gcc-patches mailing list have 
bounced from your address.

Copies of these messages may be in the archive.
To retrieve a set of messages 123-145 (a maximum of 100 per request),
send an empty message to:
  <gcc-patches-get.123_145@gcc.gnu.org>

To receive a subject and author list for the last 100 or so messages,
send an empty message to:
  <gcc-patches-index@gcc.gnu.org>

Here are the message numbers:

  366104
  366241
  366318
  366656
  366748

--- Enclosed is a copy of the bounce message I received.

Return-Path: <>
Received: (qmail 20685 invoked for bounce); 28 Apr 2014 00:05:47 -0000
Date: 28 Apr 2014 00:05:47 -0000
From: MAILER-DAEMON@sourceware.org
To: gcc-patches-return-366104-@gcc.gnu.org
Subject: failure notice

Hi. This is the qmail-send program at sourceware.org.
I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.

<mikestump@comcast.net>:
User and password not set, continuing without authentication.
<mikestump@comcast.net> 68.87.26.147 failed after I sent the message.
Remote host said: 550 5.2.0 vB3r1n01X2qVqVd0ZB3rua Message rejected due to DMARC. Please see http://postmaster.comcast.net/smtp-error-codes.php#DM000001

Re: yahoo.com address on gcc-patches

[Ian Lance Taylor]

Mike Stump <mikestump@comcast.net> writes:

> Yahoo.com has set their dmarc policy to reject all email that can’t
> pass verification:
>
>   https://dmarcian.com/dmarc-inspector/yahoo.com
>
> Such a dmarc policy is not presently compatible with mailing lists,
> nor are mailing lists presently compatible with this dmarc policy.
> dmarc uses dkim under the hood to verify email.  Mailing lists work in
> part by rewriting email and resending mail, both of which can cause
> email to fail to verify.
>
> Because of this, all yahoo addresses should be removed from all
> mailing lists.  In particular dw <limegreensocks@yahoo.com> is on the
> gcc-patches mailing list and is causing bounced messages to people
> that post to the mailing list.
>
> See google("yahoo mailing list dmarc”) for more information.
>
> I’m emailing today, as I am one of those people seeing the bounced messages:

As I see it, the problem is with 1) yahoo.com's dmarc setting; 2) people
who honor yahoo.com's setting.  I don't think there is anything sensible
we can do about it on gcc.gnu.org.  You should tell comcast.net that
they are incorrectly rejecting valid messages sent from yahoo.com via
gcc.gnu.org.

I can't see any reason for us to remove @yahoo.com addresses from the
mailing lists, because they will continue to work fine for people who
ignore dmarc--that is to say, most people.  I think people who want to
get mail from mailing lists will more or less have to ignore dmarc.

Ian


> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
> gcc-patches@gcc.gnu.org mailing list.
>
>
> Messages to you from the gcc-patches mailing list seem to
> have been bouncing. I've attached a copy of the first bounce
> message I received.
>
> If this message bounces too, I will send you a probe. If the probe bounces,
> I will remove your address from the gcc-patches mailing list,
> without further notice.
>
>
> I've kept a list of which messages from the gcc-patches mailing list have 
> bounced from your address.
>
> Copies of these messages may be in the archive.
> To retrieve a set of messages 123-145 (a maximum of 100 per request),
> send an empty message to:
>   <gcc-patches-get.123_145@gcc.gnu.org>
>
> To receive a subject and author list for the last 100 or so messages,
> send an empty message to:
>   <gcc-patches-index@gcc.gnu.org>
>
> Here are the message numbers:
>
>   366104
>   366241
>   366318
>   366656
>   366748
>
> --- Enclosed is a copy of the bounce message I received.
>
> Return-Path: <>
> Received: (qmail 20685 invoked for bounce); 28 Apr 2014 00:05:47 -0000
> Date: 28 Apr 2014 00:05:47 -0000
> From: MAILER-DAEMON@sourceware.org
> To: gcc-patches-return-366104-@gcc.gnu.org
> Subject: failure notice
>
> Hi. This is the qmail-send program at sourceware.org.
> I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
> This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.
>
> <mikestump@comcast.net>:
> User and password not set, continuing without authentication.
> <mikestump@comcast.net> 68.87.26.147 failed after I sent the message.
> Remote host said: 550 5.2.0 vB3r1n01X2qVqVd0ZB3rua Message rejected
> due to DMARC. Please see
> http://postmaster.comcast.net/smtp-error-codes.php#DM000001

Re: yahoo.com address on gcc-patches

[Mike Stump]

On May 9, 2014, at 6:08 PM, Ian Lance Taylor <ian@airs.com> wrote:
> As I see it, the problem is with 1) yahoo.com's dmarc setting;

It is working exactly as designed, unfortunately.  They have no intention of ever changing it.  :-(

> 2) people who honor yahoo.com's setting.

Again, those people are doing things exactly as designed.  :-(

> I don't think there is anything sensible we can do about it on gcc.gnu.org.

In time, new mailing list software will have to do something sensible, hopefully that will take less than 3 years…  The biggest problem is that no one has designed and documented the solution in an rfc and implemented it yet.

> You should tell comcast.net that they are incorrectly rejecting valid messages

But, they are not valid; they fail validation…  of course, the real problem is the standard is broken as designed and people are using it, that is the biggest problem.  sigh...

> I can't see any reason for us to remove @yahoo.com addresses from the
> mailing lists, because they will continue to work fine for people who
> ignore dmarc--that is to say, most people.  I think people who want to
> get mail from mailing lists will more or less have to ignore dmarc.

Re: yahoo.com address on gcc-patches

[dw]

As it turns out, ezmlm has been sending me warnings too, so I was 
already planning to move to a non-yahoo account.

It's kind of a bummer, since what little gcc reputation I have is under 
that email address.  Oh well.

dw

On 5/9/2014 7:06 PM, Mike Stump wrote:
> On May 9, 2014, at 6:08 PM, Ian Lance Taylor <ian@airs.com> wrote:
>> As I see it, the problem is with 1) yahoo.com's dmarc setting;
> It is working exactly as designed, unfortunately.  They have no intention of ever changing it.  :-(
>
>> 2) people who honor yahoo.com's setting.
> Again, those people are doing things exactly as designed.  :-(
>
>> I don't think there is anything sensible we can do about it on gcc.gnu.org.
> In time, new mailing list software will have to do something sensible, hopefully that will take less than 3 yearsÂ…  The biggest problem is that no one has designed and documented the solution in an rfc and implemented it yet.
>
>> You should tell comcast.net that they are incorrectly rejecting valid messages
> But, they are not valid; they fail validationÂ…  of course, the real problem is the standard is broken as designed and people are using it, that is the biggest problem.  sigh...
>
>> I can't see any reason for us to remove @yahoo.com addresses from the
>> mailing lists, because they will continue to work fine for people who
>> ignore dmarc--that is to say, most people.  I think people who want to
>> get mail from mailing lists will more or less have to ignore dmarc.

Re: yahoo.com address on gcc-patches

[Gerald Pfeifer]

On Sun, 11 May 2014, dw wrote:
> It's kind of a bummer, since what little gcc reputation I have is under 
> that email address.  Oh well.

This is where a real name instead of "dw" would have come handy.

It's quite more common to change e-mail addresses or employers
than names.

Gerald

Re: yahoo.com address on gcc-patches

[Ian Lance Taylor]

Mike Stump <mikestump@comcast.net> writes:

> In time, new mailing list software will have to do something sensible,
> hopefully that will take less than 3 years… The biggest problem is
> that no one has designed and documented the solution in an rfc and
> implemented it yet.

I don't actually see what mailing list software can do.

With the current state of affairs, the only approach I can see is for
the mailing list software to rewrite the From address to a local
address, and implement forwarding, so that replies will continue to
work.  But that is obviously problematic in various ways.

So I think the only possible end result of this will be that people will
stop honoring dmarc settings, just as people have stopped honoring SPF
settings.

Ian

Re: yahoo.com address on gcc-patches

[Frank Ch. Eigler]

Hi -

> [...]  With the current state of affairs, the only approach I can
> see is for the mailing list software to rewrite the From address to
> a local address, and implement forwarding, so that replies will
> continue to work.  But that is obviously problematic in various
> ways.  [...]

Should we experiment with the qmail-toaster SRS (sender rewriting)?

- FChE

Re: yahoo.com address on gcc-patches

[Ian Lance Taylor]

"Frank Ch. Eigler" <fche@elastic.org> writes:

>> [...]  With the current state of affairs, the only approach I can
>> see is for the mailing list software to rewrite the From address to
>> a local address, and implement forwarding, so that replies will
>> continue to work.  But that is obviously problematic in various
>> ways.  [...]
>
> Should we experiment with the qmail-toaster SRS (sender rewriting)?

As far as I know that rewrites every sender, which I think will
introduce considerable confusion.  If there is a way to rewrite all
senders @yahoo.com, then it may be worth trying.

Ian