* Overseers list should not be public @ 2017-09-15 8:14 Florian Weimer 2017-09-15 12:56 ` Frank Ch. Eigler 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Florian Weimer @ 2017-09-15 8:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: overseers https://sourceware.org/ml/overseers/2017-q3/ I want to discuss/suggest Bugzilla anti-spam measures, and doing so on a public list would not be appropriate. Thanks, Florian ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Overseers list should not be public 2017-09-15 8:14 Overseers list should not be public Florian Weimer @ 2017-09-15 12:56 ` Frank Ch. Eigler 2017-09-22 14:32 ` Carlos O'Donell 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Frank Ch. Eigler @ 2017-09-15 12:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Florian Weimer; +Cc: overseers Hi - > I want to discuss/suggest Bugzilla anti-spam measures, and doing so on a > public list would not be appropriate. (You could just cc: a couple of us off-list.) - FChE ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Overseers list should not be public 2017-09-15 12:56 ` Frank Ch. Eigler @ 2017-09-22 14:32 ` Carlos O'Donell 2017-09-22 14:40 ` Joseph Myers 2017-09-22 14:47 ` Frank Ch. Eigler 0 siblings, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Carlos O'Donell @ 2017-09-22 14:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Frank Ch. Eigler, Florian Weimer; +Cc: overseers On 09/15/2017 06:56 AM, Frank Ch. Eigler wrote: > Hi - > >> I want to discuss/suggest Bugzilla anti-spam measures, and doing so on a >> public list would not be appropriate. > > (You could just cc: a couple of us off-list.) For the record I also found it odd that overseers was public, surprising in fact (and I only found out it was public *this year* after having sent messages to overseers for years). The list is specifically for people discussing their problems, and possibly in a sensitive or vulnerable fashion. However, having the list public discourages a full reveal of the extent of a problem, or delays this to some kind of double disclosure e.g. you first mail the list explaining that you have something embarassing to talk about, get a list of people who might help you, and then talk to them privately. The problem there is that the *other* overseers never get to learn by watching. All-in-all I consider the public nature of the list to have only negative consequences. This is just my opinion. I would further suggest other overseers comment on their relative positions. -- Cheers, Carlos. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Overseers list should not be public 2017-09-22 14:32 ` Carlos O'Donell @ 2017-09-22 14:40 ` Joseph Myers 2017-09-22 15:06 ` Martin Sebor 2017-09-22 16:37 ` Carlos O'Donell 2017-09-22 14:47 ` Frank Ch. Eigler 1 sibling, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Joseph Myers @ 2017-09-22 14:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: Frank Ch. Eigler, Florian Weimer, overseers On Fri, 22 Sep 2017, Carlos O'Donell wrote: > All-in-all I consider the public nature of the list to have only > negative consequences. I think it's clearly positive for it to be public. It means we don't need to have a process for defining who from a project gets to be on overseers. It means we can readily refer back to past discussions in the archives. It means that when there are system problems we can refer to overseers discussions of those problems on the mailing lists for individual projects, and people who might not otherwise want to be on overseers can follow the discussions there while the problems are affecting them. It means people can check the overseers archives to see if a problem they're encountering has already been reported. Note that the overseers archives are disabled from search engine indexing via robots.txt. -- Joseph S. Myers joseph@codesourcery.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Overseers list should not be public 2017-09-22 14:40 ` Joseph Myers @ 2017-09-22 15:06 ` Martin Sebor 2017-09-22 16:37 ` Carlos O'Donell 1 sibling, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Martin Sebor @ 2017-09-22 15:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Joseph Myers, Carlos O'Donell Cc: Frank Ch. Eigler, Florian Weimer, overseers On 09/22/2017 08:39 AM, Joseph Myers wrote: > On Fri, 22 Sep 2017, Carlos O'Donell wrote: > >> All-in-all I consider the public nature of the list to have only >> negative consequences. > > I think it's clearly positive for it to be public. It means we don't need > to have a process for defining who from a project gets to be on overseers. > It means we can readily refer back to past discussions in the archives. > It means that when there are system problems we can refer to overseers > discussions of those problems on the mailing lists for individual > projects, and people who might not otherwise want to be on overseers can > follow the discussions there while the problems are affecting them. It > means people can check the overseers archives to see if a problem they're > encountering has already been reported. > > Note that the overseers archives are disabled from search engine indexing > via robots.txt. I also only found out about the list (or public access to it) very recently. I remember being surprised by it, mainly because of the absence of links to its archives or any mention on the Web site of it being open to subscription that I could find. Personally I don't see a problem with it being open, but if that's by design I think it should be documented like all other open lists, and probably also made searchable. Doing otherwise implies that it's not mean to be quite as public as all the others. (If there's some other reason for it not being searchable then documenting it would help dispel that perception.) Martin ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Overseers list should not be public 2017-09-22 14:40 ` Joseph Myers 2017-09-22 15:06 ` Martin Sebor @ 2017-09-22 16:37 ` Carlos O'Donell 2017-09-22 16:41 ` Frank Ch. Eigler 1 sibling, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Carlos O'Donell @ 2017-09-22 16:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Joseph Myers; +Cc: Frank Ch. Eigler, Florian Weimer, overseers On 09/22/2017 08:39 AM, Joseph Myers wrote: > On Fri, 22 Sep 2017, Carlos O'Donell wrote: > >> All-in-all I consider the public nature of the list to have only >> negative consequences. > > I think it's clearly positive for it to be public. It means we don't need > to have a process for defining who from a project gets to be on overseers. > It means we can readily refer back to past discussions in the archives. > It means that when there are system problems we can refer to overseers > discussions of those problems on the mailing lists for individual > projects, and people who might not otherwise want to be on overseers can > follow the discussions there while the problems are affecting them. It > means people can check the overseers archives to see if a problem they're > encountering has already been reported. a) Although we lack a formalized processing for getting on overseers, the list isn't without an informal vetting process. First you have to realize it's a list you can subscribe to, and nothing on https://sourceware.org/lists.html says anything about it. Therefore I refute the claims that it's a public list with no process for acceptance. It's a public list in name only. It is a self-selecting process for getting on overseers which effectively makes it private. And the fact that robots.txt doesn't index it furthers my claims that it is in theory a list that most people assume is private. b) I have never referred to an overseers mailing list thread ever because I didn't know it was public, because it's not listed on lists.html. Because of that the culture I've seen has been one where I: * Email overseers on behalf of my community. * Gather consensus from overseers on a solution. * Summarize and condense the discussion and repost on the community list. Then I reference the community list discussion. Given the limited overseers resources this seems like a good way to minimize overloading overseers. And if we get the same questions from multiple people we should, as overseers keep a sourceware.org "Status" page with live status and just point people at that (and I volunteer to help keep that alive as a wiki page with status e.g. sourceware.org/wiki/Status with our own wiki with process information for how things are handled). c) I don't have enough data to know if anyone actually does or does not follow overseers discussions. I *do* know that people follow my summarized discussions on the related community mailing lists. d) Again, status of overseers should be relegated to a Status wiki page kept live by overseers volunteers with green light icons for infrastructure status. In summary: - If overseers is public and we see value in it being public, then we should do the following: (1) List overseers on https://sourceware.org/lists.html (2) Allow google to index it so others can receive the benefit of search results on it. - Alternatively if overseers should be made private, to allow people to submit sensitive or vulnerable questions, then we should make the list private. - Regardless of the fact we should have a sourceware.org wiki where a Status page gives a live status of the infrastructure. I don't know of anything like this (other than the news.html page, not updated since 2005 because it's hard to update the html). -- Cheers, Carlos. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Overseers list should not be public 2017-09-22 16:37 ` Carlos O'Donell @ 2017-09-22 16:41 ` Frank Ch. Eigler 2017-09-22 16:56 ` Carlos O'Donell 2017-09-22 17:06 ` Joseph Myers 0 siblings, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Frank Ch. Eigler @ 2017-09-22 16:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carlos O'Donell Cc: Joseph Myers, Frank Ch. Eigler, Florian Weimer, overseers Hi - > [...] It's a public list in name only. It is a self-selecting > process for getting on overseers which effectively makes it > private. [...] "public" and "private" is a false dichotomy in this context. Focus on actual characteristics: - It is not publicized / well-known. - Its membership and archives are open. It's unusual. (I agree we could use much better status / infrastructure-related published data, as a separate topic.) - FChE ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Overseers list should not be public 2017-09-22 16:41 ` Frank Ch. Eigler @ 2017-09-22 16:56 ` Carlos O'Donell 2017-09-22 17:14 ` Frank Ch. Eigler 2017-09-22 17:06 ` Joseph Myers 1 sibling, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Carlos O'Donell @ 2017-09-22 16:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Frank Ch. Eigler Cc: Joseph Myers, Frank Ch. Eigler, Florian Weimer, overseers On 09/22/2017 10:41 AM, Frank Ch. Eigler wrote: > Hi - > >> [...] It's a public list in name only. It is a self-selecting >> process for getting on overseers which effectively makes it >> private. [...] > > "public" and "private" is a false dichotomy in this context. > Focus on actual characteristics: > > - It is not publicized / well-known. > - Its membership and archives are open. > > It's unusual. > > (I agree we could use much better status / infrastructure-related > published data, as a separate topic.) It is germane. Particularly if we are going to outline next steps to improve our infrastructure. I'm happy to plod along and implement the next steps, but we need some kind of agreement on those. Should we commit to an open list as Joseph suggests? I would see the following as next steps: * Add overseers to lists.html and describe what the list is for. * Remove robots.txt entry for overseers mailing list. * Create a wiki for base sourceware infrastructure. * Enforce ACL via EditorsGroup to the wiki. * Add a Status page in the wiki showing sourceware status. * Update news.html to mention latest breakage. I can help get these steps accomplished if we think, as a group of volunteers, that this is a worthwhile endeavour. -- Cheers, Carlos. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Overseers list should not be public 2017-09-22 16:56 ` Carlos O'Donell @ 2017-09-22 17:14 ` Frank Ch. Eigler 2017-09-22 17:34 ` Carlos O'Donell 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Frank Ch. Eigler @ 2017-09-22 17:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carlos O'Donell Cc: Joseph Myers, Frank Ch. Eigler, Florian Weimer, overseers Hi - > > (I agree we could use much better status / infrastructure-related > [...] > I would see the following as next steps: > > * Add overseers to lists.html and describe what the list is for. > * Remove robots.txt entry for overseers mailing list. This is a separate matter ... > * Create a wiki for base sourceware infrastructure. > * Enforce ACL via EditorsGroup to the wiki. > * Add a Status page in the wiki showing sourceware status. > * Update news.html to mention latest breakage. ... from this. This latter bit has been on our todo list for some time, but will get to it shortly. - FChE ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Overseers list should not be public 2017-09-22 17:14 ` Frank Ch. Eigler @ 2017-09-22 17:34 ` Carlos O'Donell 2017-10-31 16:03 ` Frank Ch. Eigler 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Carlos O'Donell @ 2017-09-22 17:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Frank; +Cc: Frank Ch. Eigler, Florian Weimer, Joseph Myers, overseers [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 754 bytes --] On Sep 22, 2017 11:14, "Frank Ch. Eigler" <fche@redhat.com> wrote: Hi - > > (I agree we could use much better status / infrastructure-related > [...] > I would see the following as next steps: > > * Add overseers to lists.html and describe what the list is for. > * Remove robots.txt entry for overseers mailing list. This is a separate matter ... > * Create a wiki for base sourceware infrastructure. > * Enforce ACL via EditorsGroup to the wiki. > * Add a Status page in the wiki showing sourceware status. > * Update news.html to mention latest breakage. ... from this. This latter bit has been on our todo list for some time, but will get to it shortly. Can I help with that? Do you agree with all the bullet points after the first two? c. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Overseers list should not be public 2017-09-22 17:34 ` Carlos O'Donell @ 2017-10-31 16:03 ` Frank Ch. Eigler 0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Frank Ch. Eigler @ 2017-10-31 16:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carlos O'Donell Cc: Frank Ch. Eigler, Florian Weimer, Joseph Myers, overseers Hi - On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 12:33:56PM -0500, Carlos O'Donell wrote: > [...] > This is a separate matter ... > > > * Create a wiki for base sourceware infrastructure. > [...] > Can I help with that? > [...] Please do! Finally set up an ikiwiki instance (git-backed, lightweight) wiki for infrastructure docs. It's mostly blank! https://sourceware.org/sourceware-wiki/ Ping me on irc for the "account creation password". - FChE ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Overseers list should not be public 2017-09-22 16:41 ` Frank Ch. Eigler 2017-09-22 16:56 ` Carlos O'Donell @ 2017-09-22 17:06 ` Joseph Myers 1 sibling, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Joseph Myers @ 2017-09-22 17:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Frank Ch. Eigler Cc: Carlos O'Donell, Frank Ch. Eigler, Florian Weimer, overseers On Fri, 22 Sep 2017, Frank Ch. Eigler wrote: > "public" and "private" is a false dichotomy in this context. > Focus on actual characteristics: > > - It is not publicized / well-known. > - Its membership and archives are open. And, for a theoretical understanding of such cases where something is available to the public but may still have privacy considerations, see Helen Nissenbaum's work on privacy as contextual integrity. In those terms, the particular ways in which the list is or is not advertised contribute to associated norms of information flow. -- Joseph S. Myers joseph@codesourcery.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Overseers list should not be public 2017-09-22 14:32 ` Carlos O'Donell 2017-09-22 14:40 ` Joseph Myers @ 2017-09-22 14:47 ` Frank Ch. Eigler 2017-09-22 14:56 ` Carlos O'Donell 2017-09-22 17:15 ` Florian Weimer 1 sibling, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Frank Ch. Eigler @ 2017-09-22 14:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: Frank Ch. Eigler, Florian Weimer, overseers Hi - On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 08:32:33AM -0600, Carlos O'Donell wrote: > [...] The list is specifically for people discussing their > problems, and possibly in a sensitive or vulnerable fashion. [...] It's for lots of things - but I don't recall anything embarrassing there, come to think of it. The funny/sad/embarrassing parts were people trying to censor mailing list archives of personal folly, and we haven't had a request for that in some time (whew). Do you have another type of example in mind? - FChE ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Overseers list should not be public 2017-09-22 14:47 ` Frank Ch. Eigler @ 2017-09-22 14:56 ` Carlos O'Donell 2017-09-22 17:15 ` Florian Weimer 1 sibling, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Carlos O'Donell @ 2017-09-22 14:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Frank Ch. Eigler; +Cc: Frank Ch. Eigler, Florian Weimer, overseers On 09/22/2017 08:47 AM, Frank Ch. Eigler wrote: > Hi - > > > On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 08:32:33AM -0600, Carlos O'Donell wrote: > >> [...] The list is specifically for people discussing their >> problems, and possibly in a sensitive or vulnerable fashion. [...] > > It's for lots of things - but I don't recall anything embarrassing > there, come to think of it. The funny/sad/embarrassing parts were > people trying to censor mailing list archives of personal folly, and > we haven't had a request for that in some time (whew). Do you have > another type of example in mind? I have no other examples to prove that particular point. Joseph's other points on this thread are also valid. It only underscores that it is hard to run a list like overseers with such varying requirements. -- Cheers, Carlos. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Overseers list should not be public 2017-09-22 14:47 ` Frank Ch. Eigler 2017-09-22 14:56 ` Carlos O'Donell @ 2017-09-22 17:15 ` Florian Weimer 2017-09-22 17:24 ` Joseph Myers 2017-09-22 17:32 ` Carlos O'Donell 1 sibling, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Florian Weimer @ 2017-09-22 17:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Frank Ch. Eigler, Carlos O'Donell; +Cc: Frank Ch. Eigler, overseers On 09/22/2017 04:47 PM, Frank Ch. Eigler wrote: > It's for lots of things - but I don't recall anything embarrassing > there, come to think of it. The funny/sad/embarrassing parts were > people trying to censor mailing list archives of personal folly, and > we haven't had a request for that in some time (whew). Do you have > another type of example in mind? https://sourceware.org/ml/overseers/2017-q3/msg00071.html Posting passwords to public lists even if they are temporary is ⦠strange. Thanks, Florian ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Overseers list should not be public 2017-09-22 17:15 ` Florian Weimer @ 2017-09-22 17:24 ` Joseph Myers 2017-09-22 17:32 ` Carlos O'Donell 1 sibling, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Joseph Myers @ 2017-09-22 17:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Florian Weimer Cc: Frank Ch. Eigler, Carlos O'Donell, Frank Ch. Eigler, overseers [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 672 bytes --] On Fri, 22 Sep 2017, Florian Weimer wrote: > On 09/22/2017 04:47 PM, Frank Ch. Eigler wrote: > > It's for lots of things - but I don't recall anything embarrassing > > there, come to think of it. The funny/sad/embarrassing parts were > > people trying to censor mailing list archives of personal folly, and > > we haven't had a request for that in some time (whew). Do you have > > another type of example in mind? > > https://sourceware.org/ml/overseers/2017-q3/msg00071.html > > Posting passwords to public lists even if they are temporary is ⦠strange. I think posting a password here is just an ordinary mistake. -- Joseph S. Myers joseph@codesourcery.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Overseers list should not be public 2017-09-22 17:15 ` Florian Weimer 2017-09-22 17:24 ` Joseph Myers @ 2017-09-22 17:32 ` Carlos O'Donell 1 sibling, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Carlos O'Donell @ 2017-09-22 17:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Florian Weimer; +Cc: Frank Ch. Eigler, Frank, overseers [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 808 bytes --] On Sep 22, 2017 11:15, "Florian Weimer" <fweimer@redhat.com> wrote: On 09/22/2017 04:47 PM, Frank Ch. Eigler wrote: > It's for lots of things - but I don't recall anything embarrassing > there, come to think of it. The funny/sad/embarrassing parts were > people trying to censor mailing list archives of personal folly, and > we haven't had a request for that in some time (whew). Do you have > another type of example in mind? > https://sourceware.org/ml/overseers/2017-q3/msg00071.html Posting passwords to public lists even if they are temporary is … strange. It was a mistake. Mainly fighting the cognitive bias of a decade of thinking this list was private. That is my problem to solve though. What is relevant is the discussion of what should be done if anything. c. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2017-10-31 16:03 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 17+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2017-09-15 8:14 Overseers list should not be public Florian Weimer 2017-09-15 12:56 ` Frank Ch. Eigler 2017-09-22 14:32 ` Carlos O'Donell 2017-09-22 14:40 ` Joseph Myers 2017-09-22 15:06 ` Martin Sebor 2017-09-22 16:37 ` Carlos O'Donell 2017-09-22 16:41 ` Frank Ch. Eigler 2017-09-22 16:56 ` Carlos O'Donell 2017-09-22 17:14 ` Frank Ch. Eigler 2017-09-22 17:34 ` Carlos O'Donell 2017-10-31 16:03 ` Frank Ch. Eigler 2017-09-22 17:06 ` Joseph Myers 2017-09-22 14:47 ` Frank Ch. Eigler 2017-09-22 14:56 ` Carlos O'Donell 2017-09-22 17:15 ` Florian Weimer 2017-09-22 17:24 ` Joseph Myers 2017-09-22 17:32 ` Carlos O'Donell
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