From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29086 invoked by alias); 6 Jul 2008 23:33:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 29078 invoked by uid 22791); 6 Jul 2008 23:33:40 -0000 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_50,SPF_HELO_PASS,SPF_PASS X-Spam-Check-By: sourceware.org Received: from mx1.redhat.com (HELO mx1.redhat.com) (66.187.233.31) by sourceware.org (qpsmtpd/0.31) with ESMTP; Sun, 06 Jul 2008 23:33:14 +0000 Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m66NX5Sb029415; Sun, 6 Jul 2008 19:33:12 -0400 Received: from pobox-3.corp.redhat.com (pobox-3.corp.redhat.com [10.11.255.67]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m66NX5tL019405; Sun, 6 Jul 2008 19:33:05 -0400 Received: from touchme.toronto.redhat.com (IDENT:postfix@touchme.yyz.redhat.com [10.15.16.9]) by pobox-3.corp.redhat.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m66NWO3H027149; Sun, 6 Jul 2008 19:32:56 -0400 Received: from ton.toronto.redhat.com (ton.yyz.redhat.com [10.15.16.15]) by touchme.toronto.redhat.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A39C98001FF; Sun, 6 Jul 2008 19:32:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ton.toronto.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by ton.toronto.redhat.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m66NVpLJ009108; Sun, 6 Jul 2008 19:31:51 -0400 Received: (from fche@localhost) by ton.toronto.redhat.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id m66NVoFE009107; Sun, 6 Jul 2008 19:31:50 -0400 Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 23:33:00 -0000 From: "Frank Ch. Eigler" To: James Bottomley Cc: Karen Shaeffer , Roland Dreier , systemtap@sources.redhat.com Subject: Re: [Ksummit-2008-discuss] DTrace Message-ID: <20080706233150.GN2881@redhat.com> References: <20080627150424.GB14894@parisc-linux.org> <1214580213.3394.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080627182754.GB7549@mit.edu> <1214597135.3394.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4865B111.2040307@redhat.com> <20080704200055.GA11232@synapse.neuralscape.com> <20080704224424.GA12454@synapse.neuralscape.com> <1215273663.3439.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1215273663.3439.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.58 on 172.16.52.254 Mailing-List: contact systemtap-help@sourceware.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Help: , Sender: systemtap-owner@sourceware.org X-SW-Source: 2008-q3/txt/msg00061.txt.bz2 Hi, James - > [...] The problem is that SystemTap hasn't really benefited from > community based innovation largely because it doesn't have much of a > community. The bigger picture problem Red Hat didn't see when they > accepted the cash was that this project wouldn't generate a > community just from the usual publish the code and they will come > philosophy. [...] Red Hat didn't help build systemtap on "contract" if that's what you think. It has not been the sole player either. Many of the same customers who really want to use the tool have been partners, contributing considerable ongoing engineering talent to help it along. > [...] The rising challenge it to find a way of bringing open source > methods to bear on this class of problem. What SystemTap seems to > have demonstrated nicely is that simply paying a third party to > solve your problem doesn't really work largely because the tight > feedback loop between the producer and the consumer that drives open > source innovation is broken. [...] This analysis really doesn't seem to fit well to our actual situation. We've been soliciting/collecting community contributions from the beginning. We've been active on LKML since 2005. Any accusation that we're not displaying "open source innovation" needs better evidence than that some LKML seniors have not been very supportive / satisfied users. - FChE