* Occupant Combat, Redux @ 2003-07-02 18:00 Elijah Meeks 2003-07-02 18:27 ` Hans Ronne 2003-07-02 18:45 ` Jim Kingdon 0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Elijah Meeks @ 2003-07-02 18:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: xconq7 Hey guys, if somebody gets a chance, can there be some kind of overhaul of the occupant combat system? I was searching through the old archives and I noticed a post by Hans stating that the current system more represents units in a transport, like an APC. Is it possible to add a separate routine for units in a city? Otherwise, I think it's a real problem that when units attack a place, they get free attacks on all the occupants in that place. I know, I know, but I promise I'll pick up Lisp for Dummies next week and see how much I can contribute to the actual code. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Occupant Combat, Redux 2003-07-02 18:00 Occupant Combat, Redux Elijah Meeks @ 2003-07-02 18:27 ` Hans Ronne 2003-07-02 18:36 ` Elijah Meeks 2003-07-02 18:45 ` Jim Kingdon 1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Hans Ronne @ 2003-07-02 18:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Elijah Meeks; +Cc: xconq7 >Hey guys, if somebody gets a chance, can there be some >kind of overhaul of the occupant combat system? I was >searching through the old archives and I noticed a >post by Hans stating that the current system more >represents units in a transport, like an APC. Is it >possible to add a separate routine for units in a >city? Otherwise, I think it's a real problem that >when units attack a place, they get free attacks on >all the occupants in that place. You can set protection to 0, i.e. full protection, and the occs will never be hit when you hit the transport. Furthermore, if you leave occupant-escape-chance at its default 0 they will be killed when the transport is killed (but remain intact until then). With respect to the city, bombarding it should damage the occupants, so I see nothing wrong in principle with this. What I find strange in this code is rather what happens if you miss the transport. You must all have seen the frequent message: "Your unit a misses enemy unit b and hits its occupants c, d and e". But this is how things work. If we change this scheme we would also have to change every game that uses the standard combat model. Which I doubt would be a good idea right now. Hans P.S. occupant protection in combat model 1 works quite differently. See table.def and combat.c for details. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Occupant Combat, Redux 2003-07-02 18:27 ` Hans Ronne @ 2003-07-02 18:36 ` Elijah Meeks 2003-07-02 18:48 ` Bruno Boettcher 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Elijah Meeks @ 2003-07-02 18:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Hans Ronne; +Cc: xconq7 > You can set protection to 0, i.e. full protection, > and the occs will never > be hit when you hit the transport. Furthermore, if > you leave > occupant-escape-chance at its default 0 they will be > killed when the > transport is killed (but remain intact until then). Yes, but with full protection, a place can have no capture chance (As my fortresses are set up in Specula). Otherwise, if they can be captured, then the units within the cities, which are supposed to defend it, instead are wiped out or captured. > With respect to the city, bombarding it should > damage the occupants, so I > see nothing wrong in principle with this. > Most units aren't bombarding a city in the sense you describe (Artillery or strategic bombing), they fight the units within they city, and when they do the way the current system is set up, their fire is multiplied by the number of occupants. Even with bombarding units, this is only realistic if you're trying to simulate some kind of troop density in a hex, so that a more heavily occupied hex is vulnerable to strategic weaponry. That's situational, and should be handled as an exception and not a rule. > What I find strange in this code is rather what > happens if you miss the > transport. You must all have seen the frequent > message: "Your unit a misses > enemy unit b and hits its occupants c, d and e". But > this is how things > work. If we change this scheme we would also have to > change every game that > uses the standard combat model. Which I doubt would > be a good idea right > now. You could add it separately, so that xconq still recognizes and handles "occupant" and "transport" relationship as it does now, while we can add a "resident" and "dwelling" relationship which would be subject to the revised system. This way we can keep the old occupant-transport rules, which are suitable in many cases, and utilize a more realistic system for units in a place. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Occupant Combat, Redux 2003-07-02 18:36 ` Elijah Meeks @ 2003-07-02 18:48 ` Bruno Boettcher 2003-07-02 19:32 ` Hans Ronne 2003-07-03 2:37 ` Eric McDonald 0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Bruno Boettcher @ 2003-07-02 18:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: xconq7 On Wed, Jul 02, 2003 at 11:27:15AM -0700, Elijah Meeks wrote: > > With respect to the city, bombarding it should > > damage the occupants, so I > > see nothing wrong in principle with this. yep but there's somehow a lack of consistency between an attack in open field (i attack with a bomber a hex filled up to the brim with units, and my bombs hit only 1 unit) and one onto a place (where all units get hit..) i absolutely agree that units should be damaged if their container is damaged but its still annoying if a lone armor is able to take a city with 5 armor in it... > Most units aren't bombarding a city in the sense you > describe (Artillery or strategic bombing), they fight true, there should be a disctinction between shooting and bombing, means point weapons and surface weapons > > What I find strange in this code is rather what > > happens if you miss the > > transport. You must all have seen the frequent > > message: "Your unit a misses > > enemy unit b and hits its occupants c, d and e". But yah that one kept me wondering for years now :D > > work. If we change this scheme we would also have to > > change every game that > > uses the standard combat model. Which I doubt would > > be a good idea right > > now. hmmm but i think that if we manage to move to something more consistent and logical it would be a necessary step to take IMHO sooner than later ;) > You could add it separately, so that xconq still > recognizes and handles "occupant" and "transport" > relationship as it does now, while we can add a > "resident" and "dwelling" relationship which would be > subject to the revised system. This way we can keep > the old occupant-transport rules, which are suitable > in many cases, and utilize a more realistic system for > units in a place. i can only and absolutely second this !! coming to combat, cities should be regarded more as a type of terrain than as a unit. -- ciao bboett ============================================================== bboett@adlp.org http://inforezo.u-strasbg.fr/~bboett =============================================================== ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Occupant Combat, Redux 2003-07-02 18:48 ` Bruno Boettcher @ 2003-07-02 19:32 ` Hans Ronne 2003-07-03 2:14 ` Bruno Boettcher 2003-07-03 2:37 ` Eric McDonald 1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Hans Ronne @ 2003-07-02 19:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bboett; +Cc: xconq7 >yep but there's somehow a lack of consistency between an attack in open >field (i attack with a bomber a hex filled up to the brim with units, > and my bombs hit only 1 unit) and one onto a place (where all units > get hit..) >> You could add it separately, so that xconq still >> recognizes and handles "occupant" and "transport" >> relationship as it does now, while we can add a >> "resident" and "dwelling" relationship which would be >> subject to the revised system. This way we can keep >> the old occupant-transport rules, which are suitable >> in many cases, and utilize a more realistic system for >> units in a place. >i can only and absolutely second this !! coming to combat, cities should >be regarded more as a type of terrain than as a unit. This is how combat model 1 works. The attacker is pitted against one defender at a time, and has to defeat all of them in order to capture the city. The city is in a way reduced to a battle field (just as in Civ). This kind of scheme suffers from the opposite problem, however: it is very difficult to capture and adequately defended city. Hans ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Occupant Combat, Redux 2003-07-02 19:32 ` Hans Ronne @ 2003-07-03 2:14 ` Bruno Boettcher 2003-07-04 19:45 ` Eric McDonald 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Bruno Boettcher @ 2003-07-03 2:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: xconq7 On Wed, Jul 02, 2003 at 08:59:03PM +0200, Hans Ronne wrote: > This is how combat model 1 works. The attacker is pitted against one > defender at a time, and has to defeat all of them in order to capture the hmmm that's indeed not the ideal way either... that's why the idea to separate surface weapons from point weapons would add a new dimension to the bombers :D are there allready separate hit chances when combatting inside a city? in a city infantry should be somehow superior to armors, just an example... if not maybe that could be an idea? the other thing is, that basicly all units fight as lone units, there doesn't seem to be something like a combat group concept. (even the fleet concept is weird and doesn't work very well) e.g. i wanted to test the russian setup with infantry piggy packing armors: not feasible, the infantry is wiped out even when they are supposed to hide behind the tanks.... the fire attractor that represent the armors isn't taken into account :D other thing that wondered me: i came over with mighty 12 armors and run into a cell with 1 armor, that armor took me down 7 of mine...... and this too is a direct consequence of the fact that all units fight alone -- ciao bboett ============================================================== bboett@adlp.org http://inforezo.u-strasbg.fr/~bboett =============================================================== ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Occupant Combat, Redux 2003-07-03 2:14 ` Bruno Boettcher @ 2003-07-04 19:45 ` Eric McDonald 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Eric McDonald @ 2003-07-04 19:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Bruno Boettcher; +Cc: xconq7 On Wed, 2 Jul 2003, Bruno Boettcher wrote: > are there allready separate hit chances when combatting inside a city? > in a city infantry should be somehow superior to armors, just an > example... > if not maybe that could be an idea? The existing occupant-combat table partially addresses this, I think. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Occupant Combat, Redux 2003-07-02 18:48 ` Bruno Boettcher 2003-07-02 19:32 ` Hans Ronne @ 2003-07-03 2:37 ` Eric McDonald 1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Eric McDonald @ 2003-07-03 2:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bboett; +Cc: xconq7 On Wed, 2 Jul 2003, Bruno Boettcher wrote: > > > work. If we change this scheme we would also have to > > > change every game that > > > uses the standard combat model. Which I doubt would > > > be a good idea right > > > now. > hmmm but i think that if we manage to move to something more consistent > and logical it would be a necessary step to take IMHO sooner than later > ;) I'm sure that there will be other releases after 7.5, in which this can be addressed. To address this, there are several things to be considered, IMO: (1) Do we continue to support what would end up becoming a "legacy" combat model and have more complex code as a result? And thus run the risk of interesting bugs creeping in? (2) Or do we completely change over to a new combat model (after agreeing upon our expectations for it), and then go through each and every game to see if the new model makes sense in that context, and rectify it if not? Either way, the resulting activity could significantly delay the 7.5 release. As it stands now, pre-7.5 already has a number of significant improvements over 7.4.1 that enable it to stand on its own as an important milestone. From a user perspective, I am as eager as you are for new features. But, as a developer, I feel that code cleanup, interface updates, and bug fixes should end out this cycle, not a new major feature. Just my opinion, of course. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Occupant Combat, Redux 2003-07-02 18:00 Occupant Combat, Redux Elijah Meeks 2003-07-02 18:27 ` Hans Ronne @ 2003-07-02 18:45 ` Jim Kingdon 2003-07-02 19:02 ` Bruno Boettcher 2003-07-10 4:24 ` Eric McDonald 1 sibling, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Jim Kingdon @ 2003-07-02 18:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: elijahmeeks; +Cc: xconq7 > Otherwise, I think it's a real problem that when units attack a place, > they get free attacks on all the occupants in that place. It makes attacking a transport (including, for example, a city in the standard game) a fairly powerful move, yes. As a defender, this means one is well served to distribute one's occupant unit among a greater number of transports. With respect to game balance and such, I'm not sure whether this is a good thing or not, but it certainly is something which has affected my strategies and tactics quite a bit. > I know, I know, but I promise I'll pick up Lisp for Dummies next week > and see how much I can contribute to the actual code. On the whole, the Language Syntax section of the xconq manual (refman.texi) tells you everything you need to know about lisp. Unfortunately, it throws in a bit of lisp terminology here and there and could use more examples (both things would be nice to fix, given the number of people who know lisp isn't so great these days). But you don't really need to know lisp - the overlap between xconq and lisp (chiefly syntax) is smaller than superficial impressions might imply. I suppose if we really want to address this perceived barrier, we could switch to XML. Although it isn't clear whether xconq would fit XML as well as other uses of XML, which are more document-like (or record/field oriented, which fits into the document model pretty easily). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Occupant Combat, Redux 2003-07-02 18:45 ` Jim Kingdon @ 2003-07-02 19:02 ` Bruno Boettcher 2003-07-10 4:24 ` Eric McDonald 1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Bruno Boettcher @ 2003-07-02 19:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: xconq7 On Wed, Jul 02, 2003 at 02:36:47PM -0400, Jim Kingdon wrote: > It makes attacking a transport (including, for example, a city in the > standard game) a fairly powerful move, yes. exactly > With respect to game balance and such, I'm not sure whether this is a > good thing or not, but it certainly is something which has affected my > strategies and tactics quite a bit. absolutely making often not very realistic tactics.... > I suppose if we really want to address this perceived barrier, we > could switch to XML. Although it isn't clear whether xconq would fit > XML as well as other uses of XML, which are more document-like (or > record/field oriented, which fits into the document model pretty > easily). hmmm i allready had some thought about this, and had begun to amke some reflexions about a suitable semantic, but a lot of xconq games are tables, and those are a real pain to reflect in xml, so i abandoned that idea... -- ciao bboett ============================================================== bboett@adlp.org http://inforezo.u-strasbg.fr/~bboett =============================================================== ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Occupant Combat, Redux 2003-07-02 18:45 ` Jim Kingdon 2003-07-02 19:02 ` Bruno Boettcher @ 2003-07-10 4:24 ` Eric McDonald 2003-07-10 11:36 ` Jim Kingdon 2003-07-13 22:07 ` Hans Ronne 1 sibling, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Eric McDonald @ 2003-07-10 4:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jim Kingdon; +Cc: xconq7 On Wed, 2 Jul 2003, Jim Kingdon wrote: > On the whole, the Language Syntax section of the xconq manual > (refman.texi) tells you everything you need to know about lisp. > Unfortunately, it throws in a bit of lisp terminology here and there > and could use more examples (both things would be nice to fix, given > the number of people who know lisp isn't so great these days). But Hi Jim, What sort of modifications to this section did you have in mind? I'll make them, if you want. I took a quick read through it a little while ago, and could only think of these potential modifications: * Mention the current range of Xconq numbers (that it uses shorts and is thus capped at 32767). This can be inferred from looking at the paragraph on dice specs, but could be made explicit. * Put emphasis on the sentence that tells what the default values are assumed to be when they are not explicitly stated in the documentation. * Give an example of an atom versus a list containing an atom versus a list containing multiple atoms. Are there others? Thanks, Eric ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Occupant Combat, Redux 2003-07-10 4:24 ` Eric McDonald @ 2003-07-10 11:36 ` Jim Kingdon 2003-07-13 22:37 ` Eric McDonald 2003-07-13 22:07 ` Hans Ronne 1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Jim Kingdon @ 2003-07-10 11:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emcdonal; +Cc: xconq7 > * Give an example of an atom versus a list containing an atom versus a > list containing multiple atoms. This would help. Reword the sentence "GDL resembles Lisp, but instead of defining functions" to say something like "GDL syntax allows you to include numbers, strings, lists, and the like. For those who know lisp, it uses a similar syntax, but lisp knowledge is not needed to write or read GDL". Change "`Dotted pairs'' are not allowed." to "There is nothing similar to the ``dotted pairs'' of lisp (and if you don't know what that is, it means you don't need to worry about it). Explain "Anything that is not a list is an @dfn{atom}." better. It isn't strictly true (it doesn't mean comments, for example). Maybe "an atom is a symbol, a number, or a string" is closer to the truth. Reword the rest of this paragraph to nuke the word "forms" (it is defined, but only later). Put an example at the start. Put more examples throughout (especially in the "Lexical Elements" section and the discussion of interpolation-list in the next section). There might be others (a really good reviewer would be someone who was trying to figure it out for the first time, without any knowledge of lisp), but those are a good start. Your other two suggestions also look OK to me. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Occupant Combat, Redux 2003-07-10 11:36 ` Jim Kingdon @ 2003-07-13 22:37 ` Eric McDonald 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Eric McDonald @ 2003-07-13 22:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jim Kingdon; +Cc: xconq7 On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, Jim Kingdon wrote: > There might be others (a really good reviewer would be someone who was > trying to figure it out for the first time, without any knowledge of > lisp), but those are a good start. Yes, that was the main reason I was keeping this discussion public, _in the hopes of getting feedback on the manual from non-Lisp people with very little programming knowledge overall. Anyway, I think I have incorporated the bulk of the changes that you and Hans suggested. After I move and find a new ISP, I may run texi2html on the results and post them in whatever Web space I am given. That way people without viewers for .info files or who don't check things out of CVS can comment on the revisions and suggest additional improvements. Thanks, Eric ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Occupant Combat, Redux 2003-07-10 4:24 ` Eric McDonald 2003-07-10 11:36 ` Jim Kingdon @ 2003-07-13 22:07 ` Hans Ronne 1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Hans Ronne @ 2003-07-13 22:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eric McDonald; +Cc: xconq7 > * Mention the current range of Xconq numbers (that it uses shorts and is >thus capped at 32767). This can be inferred from looking at the paragraph >on dice specs, but could be made explicit. Perhaps also mention that 9999, 999 and 99 (rather than 32767) are used to represent an "unlimited" large number in many games. > * Put emphasis on the sentence that tells what the default values are >assumed to be when they are not explicitly stated in the documentation. The value -1 has a special meaning in some tables. For example, if fire-hit-chance is set to -1 for a unit that can fire, the standard hit-chance table is used instead also for fire actions. > * Give an example of an atom versus a list containing an atom versus a >list containing multiple atoms. > > Are there others? > > Thanks, > Eric ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2003-07-13 22:07 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 14+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2003-07-02 18:00 Occupant Combat, Redux Elijah Meeks 2003-07-02 18:27 ` Hans Ronne 2003-07-02 18:36 ` Elijah Meeks 2003-07-02 18:48 ` Bruno Boettcher 2003-07-02 19:32 ` Hans Ronne 2003-07-03 2:14 ` Bruno Boettcher 2003-07-04 19:45 ` Eric McDonald 2003-07-03 2:37 ` Eric McDonald 2003-07-02 18:45 ` Jim Kingdon 2003-07-02 19:02 ` Bruno Boettcher 2003-07-10 4:24 ` Eric McDonald 2003-07-10 11:36 ` Jim Kingdon 2003-07-13 22:37 ` Eric McDonald 2003-07-13 22:07 ` Hans Ronne
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