Re: Updating dll info in the User's Guide

Re: Updating dll info in the User's Guide

[Joshua Daniel Franklin]

References: <Pine.CYG.4.44.0208202127280.1336-100000@joshua.iocc.com>
<Xns927173B917AEDsoren1Gmane@80.91.224.249> <20020821154045.GB21737@redhat.com>
<Xns9271790BEA4BDsoren1Gmane@80.91.224.249> <20020821162436.GE21737@redhat.com>
<Xns92718AB657BD2soren1Gmane@80.91.224.249>

"Soren A" <soren_andersen@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> There are a couple standard mechanisms for including CSS stylesheets into
> the HTML document. None seem to be in use here. The documentation seems to
> be auto-generated by 'DocBook' which is something I know nothing about; I
> suspect that this is where some answers lie, though.

DocBook FAQ:

http://www.dpawson.co.uk/docbook/

> > I should make it clear that I know nothing about stylesheets.  As you
> > noted, this is autogenerated code.  If you see a specific problem with
> > it then a specific suggestion is appropriate.
>
> Yes. My specific suggestion is that you learn your tools. It is not
> farfetched to suppose that somewhere in the user documentation that
> exists for DocBook there is info pertaining to generation and
> configuration of stylesheets to complement the application's HTML
> output.

I believe I'm actually the one who's supposed to be working on improving
the documentation. I have noticed that the HTML produced could be better
(especially that putting the ">" on the next line issue), but I don't (yet?)
know how to make it better. 

What I do know is that right now the HTML User's Guide looks decent in most
every browser, and I have heard about stylesheets that
Netscape 4.x does not support them very well. So I echo Chris':

> > If you have a specific suggestion, I'd like to hear it.

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CSS in the User's Guide (was:Updating dll info...)

[Soren A]

Joshua Daniel Franklin <joshuadfranklin@yahoo.com> wrote around 21 Aug
2002 news:20020821190517.11415.qmail@web20008.mail.yahoo.com about %s: 

> References: <Pine.CYG.4.44.0208202127280.1336-100000@joshua.iocc.com>
> <Xns927173B917AEDsoren1Gmane@80.91.224.249>
> <20020821154045.GB21737@redhat.com> 
> <Xns9271790BEA4BDsoren1Gmane@80.91.224.249>
> <20020821162436.GE21737@redhat.com> 
> <Xns92718AB657BD2soren1Gmane@80.91.224.249> 
> 
> "Soren A" <soren_andersen@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>
>> There are a couple standard mechanisms for including CSS stylesheets
>> into the HTML document. None seem to be in use here. The
>> documentation seems to be auto-generated by 'DocBook' which is
>> something I know nothing about; I suspect that this is where some
>> answers lie, though. 
> 
> DocBook FAQ:
> 
> http://www.dpawson.co.uk/docbook/
> 
>> > I should make it clear that I know nothing about stylesheets.  As
>> > you noted, this is autogenerated code.  If you see a specific
>> > problem with it then a specific suggestion is appropriate.
>>
>> Yes. My specific suggestion is that you learn your tools. It is not
>> farfetched to suppose that somewhere in the user documentation that
>> exists for DocBook there is info pertaining to generation and
>> configuration of stylesheets to complement the application's HTML
>> output.
> 
> I believe I'm actually the one who's supposed to be working on
> improving the documentation. I have noticed that the HTML produced
> could be better (especially that putting the ">" on the next line
> issue), but I don't (yet?) know how to make it better. 

Well, that's the more important issue IMO. I am not sure, if you (or
somebody else) is the person responsible for improving the
documentation, why I should consider myself to be under an obligation to
do research on your (or somebody else's) behalf -- that is research as
in 'learning the specific user configuration options or mechanisms for
the application being used to autogenerate the documentation'. Or
looking for 'known bugs' documentation in such an application. 

OTOH, as I have already indicated both explicitly and implicitly all the
way through (more on that just below*), it isn't very critical to
address these issues because the Cygwin UG, while rather spartan, is
basically usable. Very much more critical are the areas of the Guide
which have fallen grievously out of date,  exactly such as the DLL page
had. IOW here, the content is a much more pressing issue than the
presentation. 

> What I do know is that right now the HTML User's Guide looks decent in
> most every browser, and I have heard about stylesheets that
> Netscape 4.x does not support them very well. So I echo Chris':
> 
>> > If you have a specific suggestion, I'd like to hear it.

OK, it's my week for feeling generous: more specific suggestions.

  (1) Before making statements in support of a stance, especially a 
critical one, make sure you have at least half a clue about what you are 
talking about.

Stylesheet support in Netscape 4x isn't the issue because the
fundamental principle I referred to previously is that Stylesheets (CSS)
'fail gracefully' in all cases and don't prevent useability of the
document they are being utilized in. Thus your hearsay, unresearched,
less-half-understood factoid about CSS isn't relevent. 

  (2) Actually look at the product being discussed for yourself.

I've seen no evidence that either you or Chris have taken the time to
view the source of one of the UG pages. What I have been talking about
all along is that DocBook is *already using CSS* in the output that is
the UG pages. The effort required to have discovered a fragment of a
page chosen at random, like this one (using.html#USING-PATHNAMES): 

  By default, the POSIX root <TT CLASS="FILENAME">/</TT> points to
  the system partition but it can be relocated to any directory in
  the Windows file system using the <B CLASS="COMMAND">mount</B>
  command.

seems really minimal. I have no idea why the people I am responding to
found it beyond them (`grep -i 'CLASS='' ???) . Only complete
unfamiliarity with HTML -- and I grant that this is a possibility, I
realize that not all C/C++ programmers are Web page builders -- would
leave one unable to quickly recognize that in that fragment there are
TWO references to Cascading Style Sheets: 

  <TT CLASS="FILENAME">
  <B CLASS="COMMAND">

Yet these documents have no definition of what "COMMAND" or "FILENAME"
should mean to the browser being asked to render the page. Half of the
mechanism of CSS is *already* present in the documents, the other half
is *missing*. 

Lastly, my final suggestion:
   (3) Don't emulate Chris Faylor in terms of taking verbal stances or 
attitudes.

If you are looking for someone to emulate, I suggest a far more suitable
role model would be a Linus Torvalds or a Larry Wall. As decribed by
Eric Raymond with such admirable clarity in _The Cathedral and the
Bazaar_, the leading figures of some of the largest, long-lived and
successful Open Source software projects are persons noted for their
humility and ability to invite the input of others in a way that
attracts many supporters. When somebody else's idea was better than
their own, they cheerfully adopted it and moved on, thus keeping the
whole thing growing. Not only that, such figures seem to have the wisdom
to understand that you don't *get* valuable input and contributions --
and go on getting them over time -- unless you maintain an open
atmosphere in which people feel they are 'allowed' to enage in natural,
relaxed exchanges. That means that you understand that a certain (large)
amount of what gets posted isn't always going to be completely efficient
and machine-like but will sometimes be sloppy and inefficient and seem
wasteful of time. That part of it comes with the territory. And I don't
think Larry Wall or Linus went on feeling like they had to reply to
every single thread or topic that got introduced; they had the wisdom to
understand when to stay behind the scenes and when to jump in. 

*(note above) Finally, I will point out -- and believe me when i observe
that that i do not feel happy about the time i am taking away from my
real projects in order to explain this obvious thing -- *when i post a
BUG REPORT*, people will know it. I posted NOT a BUG REPORT but a simple
query, seeking in an off-hand way to find out if anyone else might have
noticed the anomalous inclusion of pointless CSS directives (the CLASS
parameters in the tags cited above) in the UG pages. That's all. I did
NOT even *invite* Chris Faylor to reply to my inquiry, much less
*demand* it, and when he did so I answered him directly and in a
detailed way even though I didn't particularly want to hear from him. 

I consider Cygwin to be far to important to myself and too many other
people to be left in the sole care of a cygwin 'junta' led by Chris
Faylor and disposed to snarling, confused recriminations on anybody they
feel fails to make the proper obeisances. Furthermore, I think the
requirements of a viable community of mutual support for Cygwin include
the freedom to just post a "I-wonder-if" kind of message without it
being torn apart by the habitual thugs surrounding the junta. I consider
myself as having granted myself permission to post 'natural, normal,
friendly' articles in discussion of things Cygwin on this List without
needing pay any heed to the thugs. Fellow users who haven't been
contaminated by this arrogant "Keeper of the Palace Keys" attitude of
Chris' (which hurts him more than anyone else) are the people I am
writing for and to. 

   Regards,
    Soren A





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Re: CSS in the User's Guide (was:Updating dll info...)

[Jon Cast]

Soren A <soren_andersen@fastmail.fm> wrote in part:
> I consider Cygwin to be far to important to myself and too many
> other people to be left in the sole care of a cygwin 'junta' led by
> Chris Faylor

I hope no-one thinks I'm speaking out of line when I say: if you don't
like how cgf is managing things, then fork.  Or at least start your
own mailing list.  But don't insist cgf (who is both maintainer of
Cygwin and manager of this list) change how he manages his stuff.
(software and mailing lists.)

>    Regards,
>     Soren A

Jon Cast

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Re: CSS in the User's Guide (was:Updating dll info...)

[Soren A]

Jon Cast <jcast@ou.edu> wrote around 22 Aug 2002 
news:200208221938.g7MJch77007558@cate2-91.reshall.ou.edu:

> Soren A <soren_andersen@fastmail.fm> wrote in part:
>> I consider Cygwin to be far to important to myself and too many
>> other people to be left in the sole care of a cygwin 'junta' led by
>> Chris Faylor
> 
> I hope no-one thinks I'm speaking out of line when I say: if you don't
> like how cgf is managing things, then fork.  Or at least start your
> own mailing list.  But don't insist cgf (who is both maintainer of
> Cygwin and manager of this list) change how he manages his stuff.
> (software and mailing lists.)
> 
>>    Regards,
>>     Soren A
> 
> Jon Cast

Ahh yes, a member of the 'thugs' speaks, as I've just referred to.
There's always been sycophants in every age of human history. 

My most recent follow-up to Joshua, that is selectively quoted above
with great care to *not* demonstrate wherein I started by demanding
anything at all, made special effort to note that no normal reading of
my postings in this discussion contain any wording by me that can be
construed as "demanding" anything, until I was accosted and accused of
"demanding" something. Of course what's "normal" for ordinary users
isn't obvious to juntas, thugs and sycophants. By definition.  

This particular guy should definitely be working for M$. He's got the
right mental outlook for closed, proprietary software and exactly the
wrong ethics for Open Source. 

  ** Thugs, junta principles and their sycophants are 
hereby *enthusiastically*  invited to killfile ALL my postings. **

Other persons are invited to reflect on the underrated axiom that "If
you are not part of the Solution, you are part of the Problem". Trying
to silence dissenters and discourage expression of dissenting viewpoints
is "being part of the problem." It's not "somebody elses' problem,
somewhere else (like Afghanistan?)", but mine and yours right here in
everyday life, in whatever sphere of society we operate. We ignore that
truth at our growing peril of waking up someday to discover that while
we were sleeping, it became "bad manners" and worse, to live according
to democratic principles (as opposed to waving flags and giving lip
service to 'patriotism'). 

  Best Regards,
   Soren A

-- 
  "It's about Power, and Abuse of Power."



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Re: CSS in the User's Guide (was:Updating dll info...)

[Michael Schaap]

On 22-8-2002 21:24, Soren A wrote:
> 
> I've seen no evidence that either you or Chris have taken the time to
> view the source of one of the UG pages. What I have been talking about
> all along is that DocBook is *already using CSS* in the output that is
> the UG pages. The effort required to have discovered a fragment of a
> page chosen at random, like this one (using.html#USING-PATHNAMES): 
> 
>   By default, the POSIX root <TT CLASS="FILENAME">/</TT> points to
>   the system partition but it can be relocated to any directory in
>   the Windows file system using the <B CLASS="COMMAND">mount</B>
>   command.
> 
> seems really minimal. I have no idea why the people I am responding to
> found it beyond them (`grep -i 'CLASS='' ???) . Only complete
> unfamiliarity with HTML -- and I grant that this is a possibility, I
> realize that not all C/C++ programmers are Web page builders -- would
> leave one unable to quickly recognize that in that fragment there are
> TWO references to Cascading Style Sheets: 
> 
>   <TT CLASS="FILENAME">
>   <B CLASS="COMMAND">
> 
> Yet these documents have no definition of what "COMMAND" or "FILENAME"
> should mean to the browser being asked to render the page. Half of the
> mechanism of CSS is *already* present in the documents, the other half
> is *missing*. 

May I recommend that you read:
	http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.2
*carefully*?
Please tell us where it insists that you must have CSS style rules 
whenever you use the 'class' attribute.

> 
> Lastly, my final suggestion:
>    (3) Don't emulate Chris Faylor in terms of taking verbal stances or 
> attitudes.

Now if this isn't the pot calling the kettle black ...

  - Michael


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Re: CSS in the User's Guide (was:Updating dll info...)

[Christopher Faylor]

On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 07:24:53PM +0000, Soren A wrote:
>I have no idea why the people I am responding to found it beyond them
>(`grep -i 'CLASS='' ???) .  Only complete unfamiliarity with HTML --
>and I grant that this is a possibility, I realize that not all C/C++
>programmers are Web page builders -- would leave one unable to quickly
>recognize that in that fragment there are TWO references to Cascading
>Style Sheets:
>
>  <TT CLASS="FILENAME">
>  <B CLASS="COMMAND">
>
>Yet these documents have no definition of what "COMMAND" or "FILENAME"
>should mean to the browser being asked to render the page. Half of the
>mechanism of CSS is *already* present in the documents, the other half
>is *missing*. 

Thanks for providing the specific information that I asked for.

I'll defer to Robert Collins on this one since he has infinitely
more knowledge about html and DocBook than I do.  I appreciate his
adding clarity here.

cgf

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Re: CSS in the User's Guide (was:Updating dll info...)

[Christopher Faylor]

On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 11:30:06PM +0200, Michael Schaap wrote:
>>Lastly, my final suggestion:
>>(3) Don't emulate Chris Faylor in terms of taking verbal stances or
>>attitudes.
>
>Now if this isn't the pot calling the kettle black ...

You know, I can and do laugh at Soren and his email but being compared
to him seriously hurts.

cgf

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Re: CSS in the User's Guide (was:Updating dll info...)

[Robert Collins]

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On Fri, 2002-08-23 at 12:19, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> >Yet these documents have no definition of what "COMMAND" or "FILENAME"
> >should mean to the browser being asked to render the page. Half of the
> >mechanism of CSS is *already* present in the documents, the other half
> >is *missing*. 

This is by design. Docbook automatically creates class attributes to
allow overriding the default display of the HTML via CSS *with no
further post processing*. The default then, is to have many undefined
classes - such as we do.

I'm not clear on what your original question was:
Was it 'there are unused class's in the User Guide HTML - does anyone
know why?' 
or 'there are unused class's in the User Guide HTML - someone should fix
this?'
or something else?

Cheers,
Rob

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Re: CSS in the User's Guide (was:Updating dll info...)

[Brian Gallew]

Soren A said:
[lots of condescending, sanctimonious crap clipped]
Did you read the replies?  Since you know all about HTML, I presume
you have heard of SGML?  Are you aware that, while it may *look* to
the average, assuming intellectual just like CSS, it is NOT, in fact,
CSS-related.

The Cygwin people seem to do a pretty good job by any standards except
yours.  Since you are neither paying them nor contributing anything
substantive either to them or to the community, please take this
opportunity to crawl back into the hole where you belong.

Thanks.



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Re: CSS in the User's Guide (was:Updating dll info...)

[Robert Collins]

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On Fri, 2002-08-23 at 23:00, Joshua Daniel Franklin wrote:

> Lately I have been exploring some options to 
> make the documentation more accessible. I'd rather not give details since they
> could be misinterpreted about what will be happening in the near future
> (by anyone reading this list, not you specifically). 

I'd be interested in hearing about this - off list if necessary. I've
used docbook a reasonable amount, in both commercial and open source
contexts - I may be able to help. There are folk more experienced than
me here too...
 
> I believe I mentioned before that I realize the HTML produced is ugly (not in
> the browser, the code). 

The HTML is both ugly and not HTML conformant. (It doesn't adhere to
it's stated DTD). Getting SGML docbook to adhere to the HTML DTD is a
non-trivial exercise. XML Docbook however, can generate HTML or XHTML
trivially via the xslt stylesheets, and that works nicely. This only has
an impact on rendering if you have standards compliant browsers - which
we are starting to get :}.

> The CLASS tags exist in the DocBook source and are used to
> decide what type of HTML to turn it into. For example, use <tt> for FILENAME,
> <b> for COMMAND, etc. 

A technical nit: The docbook 'tags' become HTML class 'attributes'. (Not
CLASS tags). (<foo /> is a tag called foo. <foo bar="value"> is foo with
an attribute 'bar'). 

> At the present time, there is no reason these tags should
> be left in the HTML since they are not used. However, I don't feel that it
> would be worth the effort at the present time to figure out how to either:

Actually can be used by anyone that wants to -> they should be left
there. An obvious example: User foo has a user defined stylesheet to
format web pages. foo will get a fully structured and stylised UG.
Removing the tags will thus hurt foo.
 
> 1) remove them
> 2) do something with them

Ah, this is easy. First off, visit http://nwalsh.com. 
Secondly read http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/docbook.html
(Not all at once!). The core to grok is this:
SGML->DSSSL Stylesheet=HTML content.
HTML content->CSS (in user browser) = presentation.

So, all you need to do to use the class attributes is to create a CSS1
(Not CSS2, to hard to get compatible browsers) stylesheet that makes the
changes you want. You need to link this in on every page, with via the
HTTP Link: header (I'm not sure if IE supports this), or via a META tag.
See http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/styles.html#h-14.3.2 for more
details. The stylesheet classes to tweak are those whose appearance you
dont like. A review of CSS1 would also help you - you can do a huge
amount very very easily once you've done that.

Frankly, the UG presentation looks fine to me. It's readable, and thats
the key thing. It'd be nice if it validated against a HTML DTD, but that
would be asking you to put a lot of effort in for fairly unexciting
results. (I can offer guidance if you *want* to put that effort in).

What could be done easly is to create pdf and plain text or even
postscript output from docbook (this can all be done in cygwin with the
authoring tools now available). 

Rob


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Re: CSS in the User's Guide (was:Updating dll info...)

[Christopher Faylor]

On Fri, Aug 23, 2002 at 06:00:30AM -0700, Joshua Daniel Franklin wrote:
>[Sorry for the much-belated reply. Had a filtering problem.]

Actually, *I* had the filtering problem.  We were blocking Joshua's
mail as spam for some reason.  I'm working on this.

Apologies to Joshua for making him jump through hoops to post.

cgf

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Re: CSS in the User's Guide (was:Updating dll info...)

[Joshua Daniel Franklin]

References: <20020821190517.11415.qmail@web20008.mail.yahoo.com>
<Xns92729D04F4EB5soren1Gmane@80.91.224.249>
<Pine.CYG.4.44.0208202127280.1336-100000@joshua.iocc.com>
<Xns927173B917AEDsoren1Gmane@80.91.224.249>
<20020821154045.GB21737@redhat.com> 
<Xns9271790BEA4BDsoren1Gmane@80.91.224.249>
<20020821162436.GE21737@redhat.com> 
<Xns92718AB657BD2soren1Gmane@80.91.224.249>

[Sorry for the much-belated reply. Had a filtering problem.]

Soren, 

I apologize for giving a useless opinion on CSS. I am not a web designer, and 
you are correct that my NS4.x hearsay was not based on any real evidence...
it's just what I heard. 

> it isn't very critical to
> address these issues because the Cygwin UG, while rather spartan, is
> basically usable. Very much more critical are the areas of the Guide
> which have fallen grievously out of date,  exactly such as the DLL page
> had. IOW here, the content is a much more pressing issue than the
> presentation.

Agreed. I have volunteered to do this, not just for the webpages, but for
*all* the Cygwin documentation. I would appreciate any
help with this. I began with a small project of making the
utils (cygcheck, cygpath, etc.; the ones in the cygwin package) all support
the GNU --help and --version options. I then used a custom help2man script to
generate some basic man pages for cygwin. Next, newlib (Cygwin's libc) had 
stopped creating man pages quite some time ago, and so I found a way to update
those (take a look at the previous newlib-man in setup.ini). I then released
a "cygwin-doc" package that contains all this plus the current versions of the
User's Guide, API Reference, and FAQ. Maybe I should have waited until more
info was updated, but I didn't. Lately I have been exploring some options to 
make the documentation more accessible. I'd rather not give details since they
could be misinterpreted about what will be happening in the near future
(by anyone reading this list, not you specifically). 

> I've seen no evidence that either you or Chris have taken the time to
> view the source of one of the UG pages. 

I believe I mentioned before that I realize the HTML produced is ugly (not in
the browser, the code). As for looking at the source, if you mean the docbook
files, Chris generates the pages on sources.redhat.com, and I generated the
pages in the cygwin-doc package. I assure you that we have looked at them.
Again I apologize that they are not yet up to date, but I am working on it.

The CLASS tags exist in the DocBook source and are used to
decide what type of HTML to turn it into. For example, use <tt> for FILENAME,
<b> for COMMAND, etc. At the present time, there is no reason these tags should

be left in the HTML since they are not used. However, I don't feel that it
would be worth the effort at the present time to figure out how to either:

1) remove them
2) do something with them

Please, you do seem to know something about HTML, and all I mean by asking for
specific examples is, could you give us some specific examples of how to use 
these tags more effectively within our current framework?
You can get the source files in the cygwin CVS. Feel free to email me if you
have any trouble finding it. 

Thank you.
Joshua Daniel Franklin

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